newworld
Active Member
Never listen to ProAc when they say that their grilles are made of "acoustically transparent crimplene".
I know, right? Liars!
Speaker Shootout
- Thread starter newworld
- Start date
I know, right? Liars!
slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Just some shots taken this afternoon...
Oh man...dont know how I missed the audioporn! That looks sexy! Congrates man....and I have tube seperates! Yeah cat....get some tube separates! Oscar turned me on to some nice tubes as-well. Get the tubed separates........Those Proacs will love you back!:yes:
newworld
Active Member
newworld, I really enjoy your thread, as a fellow classical listener and Proac owner (the lower end Tablette 2000). I've modified my Proac quite a bit to bring the best out of them, upgrading crossover components and adding a lot of damping related mods, so I have some idea of Proac's design priorities.
I've thought of upgrades a few times, and to be honest, if I were in the market for something like the D2 (which by the way looks fantastic), I'd be most curious about the similarly priced Fritz Illuminator 7 (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...peakers-electra-fidelity-zesto-audio-wywires/). The Illuminator drivers should be a notch above D2's, esp the Beryllium tweeter (I stumbled upon this looking for a poor person's Magico S1...), and the capacitorless crossover should allow an extra level of transparency. On the other hand this series crossover is controversial and I doubt their cabinet is as well designed as the D2's.
I've thought of upgrades a few times, and to be honest, if I were in the market for something like the D2 (which by the way looks fantastic), I'd be most curious about the similarly priced Fritz Illuminator 7 (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/...peakers-electra-fidelity-zesto-audio-wywires/). The Illuminator drivers should be a notch above D2's, esp the Beryllium tweeter (I stumbled upon this looking for a poor person's Magico S1...), and the capacitorless crossover should allow an extra level of transparency. On the other hand this series crossover is controversial and I doubt their cabinet is as well designed as the D2's.
Spektre
Brit alert
I found that two weeks of continuous "Prodigy" tamed the tweeters on both my new Proac's, so if you can stand it !
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newworld
Active Member
1. Integrated or pre/power, definitely with remote
2. Some Cary amps from the 90's sound fantastic to me if that's considered vintage.
3. Forward is better than laid back.
4. 88.5db
5. under $2000 (for now)
audiodon
Addicted Member
I have a Cary SLP-98-P pre and, with some tweaking, it's stellar.
Look into the SLI (Sweet Little Integrateds) or the equivalent and you won't be sorry. Again, may need some tube and cap rolling, but they're built solidly. I'm not sure how much a used SLI80 is.
Also, for new, there's a new Psvane KT-120 amp in the Grant Fidelity that shows promise but count on upgrading all the tubes.
Look into the SLI (Sweet Little Integrateds) or the equivalent and you won't be sorry. Again, may need some tube and cap rolling, but they're built solidly. I'm not sure how much a used SLI80 is.
Also, for new, there's a new Psvane KT-120 amp in the Grant Fidelity that shows promise but count on upgrading all the tubes.
newworld
Active Member
Thanks, dancy1. I personally think you should go for the Magico's instead of searching for a poor man's version. :yes:
newworld
Active Member
Going Naked...
I'm starting to think that there might be a whole lot more money going into these speakers than I had originally planned. Last night, I realized that I didn't have the stock power cord on my amplifier as I would usually, but a thicker gauge one which always sounds too mellow. I switched them out, and it got one step closer to the clarity I was looking for.
It also led me to go back to the iPod cable that the iStreamer came with instead of the fancy Audioquest one I was using with the Harbeth speakers. It took another step forward. Basically, I've undone all the little tweaks that had accumulated over the years with my previous speakers, and it just works much better.
At this point I'm thinking, I really need to get on with my source selection. These babies are so sensitive to everything! Any change I made with the Harbeth's, it was noticeable but not drastic. Harbeth always made music sound more beautiful than it is. That didn't sit well with me. Well, be careful what you wish for, because the Proac's are very demanding of clean source and amplification.
It led me to wonder, perhaps rather than trying to cover a speaker's weaknesses, if it might be wiser to play up the strengths. I mean, you buy the speakers because of its strengths. Why cover it up? I think the game with these speakers is not to muck it up by adding. I need to strip off all the unnecessary ornaments so the real sound has a chance of getting to the speakers. I embrace neutrality.
I'm starting to think that there might be a whole lot more money going into these speakers than I had originally planned. Last night, I realized that I didn't have the stock power cord on my amplifier as I would usually, but a thicker gauge one which always sounds too mellow. I switched them out, and it got one step closer to the clarity I was looking for.
It also led me to go back to the iPod cable that the iStreamer came with instead of the fancy Audioquest one I was using with the Harbeth speakers. It took another step forward. Basically, I've undone all the little tweaks that had accumulated over the years with my previous speakers, and it just works much better.
At this point I'm thinking, I really need to get on with my source selection. These babies are so sensitive to everything! Any change I made with the Harbeth's, it was noticeable but not drastic. Harbeth always made music sound more beautiful than it is. That didn't sit well with me. Well, be careful what you wish for, because the Proac's are very demanding of clean source and amplification.
It led me to wonder, perhaps rather than trying to cover a speaker's weaknesses, if it might be wiser to play up the strengths. I mean, you buy the speakers because of its strengths. Why cover it up? I think the game with these speakers is not to muck it up by adding. I need to strip off all the unnecessary ornaments so the real sound has a chance of getting to the speakers. I embrace neutrality.
ambient
Super Member
Kt77
Well-Known Member
Hi newworld,
It's nice to read that you've figured out something most tend to misunderstand - the concept of building to a systems strengths as opposed to trying to cover them up by adding cabling or tuning devices to sweeten the sound of any given component - as I was looking at a video on the YG Acoustics Sonja Parts 1 - 3,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JyJGsfMBD0
I came to realize the truth of the reviewer in regards to what is seen as the top 3 speaker lines domestically - and much agree with the fact that it's about a certain sense of honesty in speaker or component reproduction that some aren't willing to except as truth, be it good, bad or indifferently - but throughout the years I've pride myself on finding my own flavor and it's called Transparency with a dash of Neutrality thrown in for good measure - so far the only guy I know that seems to get it is another member here called Slippers - On ( Byron ) whom understand my passion for said things and knows that I'm not kicking tires - nor trying to be someone's Guru or Mentor, in so much as trying my best to be the voice of logic/rational and save someone new to this game a little bit of time and money lost on chasing the illusion of the Abso!ute sound - the best sound for me/you/anyone is the one that brings them hours/days/months/years of enjoyable listening sessions - not something that needs to be replaced in less then 4 - 9 years unless it's broken in my book - but what do I know?.
Well, let's put it like this..........., I'm content with a very synergistic system that's clicking ( matches on a purely musical ground ) while some are content chasing boxes every other 5 months or so, merely because they don't trust their ears and know when **** is working together - let it be.
Newworld, as someone whom was an avid fan of ProAc based designs from 1988 until 2010, trust me..........., I know there's more to them then most - but it's merely a matter of working with them, as opposed to against them, as you've so wisely figured out, and I for one approach your commitment to knowing
" Your Truth ".
Regards,
h
audiodon
Addicted Member
Yep,
music's not always supposed to be pretty. It's intended to move you and, when your system is right, aside from your music selection, you're handing over how the music moves you to others. If it's about control on your part, that's a different journey from the one some take. But journeying in that direction is somewhat about not fully trusting the artist(s) and everyone else involved in getting the music to you.
I also applaud this honesty and I have to say that what you're doing now is a very advanced part of the journey, at least to me. Admitting and undoing is a big deal.
music's not always supposed to be pretty. It's intended to move you and, when your system is right, aside from your music selection, you're handing over how the music moves you to others. If it's about control on your part, that's a different journey from the one some take. But journeying in that direction is somewhat about not fully trusting the artist(s) and everyone else involved in getting the music to you.
I also applaud this honesty and I have to say that what you're doing now is a very advanced part of the journey, at least to me. Admitting and undoing is a big deal.
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slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Newworld.....if you are a musician, then you are more than halfway there. I also assume you know what you want in a system....at least you know what sound you want from reading about how you came to get what you just purchased. This all tells me you can hear...meaning you have a trained ear. I'm sure some people look at my sig and see my amp and speaker combination and wonder why I have what I have. I don't have popular gear and it hardly ever comes up in conversation.
Well it was because after listening to endless pairs of speakers over the years, I was taken by what Canton speakers could do with music. I loved the voicing of Cantons....open from top to bottom, transparent very accurate and clear. And midrange voicing i had to have. I wanted to keep them that way....play to its strengths as you say. Cantons are German and I discoverd German voicing is unlike a traditional British sound and not like An American sound. I decided on Vincent because it had that important trait as well....clear and transparent nothing lacking in sonics or dynamic range and with a tube presence with great midrange. The speakers and amps had that synergy thang due to both have that German voicing going on. All was needed was a cable that seemed to add nothing nor subtracted nothing....the purest copper I could find and could afford. Now have you, Vincent is a budget option...German engineering but built in China, but that's a good thing as quality is top notch, sound is excellent, and price was well bellow it's performance...but I had to spend good loot on the Vento's....I couldn't find a budget speaker to replace them and besides I had to have genuine Canton. When you have a clear, transparent system, speakers and good cables, you can hear everything or every source upstream from the speakers. No matter what you add or subtract from your system, with clarity and transparency, you will hear it.
I say all that to say, seeing you are already ahead of the game because you can hear..... Chose your source gear carefully and lean on those in the know for help when needed, and never think you know it all, because none of us do. Lean on others because that's part of the hobby as well, bouncing things off those in the know. If not seeking council from those who have been around and in the know.. you may find yourself going down that slippery slope right onto that thing we call a Merry go round....wasting lots of loot in the process. Now to some audiophiles credit, they like switching gear in and out...after all it's part of the hobby...it's what some audio hobbyist do....but there are some who just can't hear, so they spend...spend and spend again. One who can hear, will learn to find the sound characteristics of components...understand it's weekness as well as it's strengths. And don't fudge on asking Big Guy ( Oscar ) about tubed gear, or Audiodon who seems to be skilled in the electrical side of things for advice.
I can be long winded so I will leave it there...but this will be interesting and fun following your thread. I like reading, won't say much for lack of time these days, but I like following and reading and learning....like I'm reading Arts LS50 thread...it's interesting seeing others reactions to said speaker.
Well it was because after listening to endless pairs of speakers over the years, I was taken by what Canton speakers could do with music. I loved the voicing of Cantons....open from top to bottom, transparent very accurate and clear. And midrange voicing i had to have. I wanted to keep them that way....play to its strengths as you say. Cantons are German and I discoverd German voicing is unlike a traditional British sound and not like An American sound. I decided on Vincent because it had that important trait as well....clear and transparent nothing lacking in sonics or dynamic range and with a tube presence with great midrange. The speakers and amps had that synergy thang due to both have that German voicing going on. All was needed was a cable that seemed to add nothing nor subtracted nothing....the purest copper I could find and could afford. Now have you, Vincent is a budget option...German engineering but built in China, but that's a good thing as quality is top notch, sound is excellent, and price was well bellow it's performance...but I had to spend good loot on the Vento's....I couldn't find a budget speaker to replace them and besides I had to have genuine Canton. When you have a clear, transparent system, speakers and good cables, you can hear everything or every source upstream from the speakers. No matter what you add or subtract from your system, with clarity and transparency, you will hear it.
I say all that to say, seeing you are already ahead of the game because you can hear..... Chose your source gear carefully and lean on those in the know for help when needed, and never think you know it all, because none of us do. Lean on others because that's part of the hobby as well, bouncing things off those in the know. If not seeking council from those who have been around and in the know.. you may find yourself going down that slippery slope right onto that thing we call a Merry go round....wasting lots of loot in the process. Now to some audiophiles credit, they like switching gear in and out...after all it's part of the hobby...it's what some audio hobbyist do....but there are some who just can't hear, so they spend...spend and spend again. One who can hear, will learn to find the sound characteristics of components...understand it's weekness as well as it's strengths. And don't fudge on asking Big Guy ( Oscar ) about tubed gear, or Audiodon who seems to be skilled in the electrical side of things for advice.
I can be long winded so I will leave it there...but this will be interesting and fun following your thread. I like reading, won't say much for lack of time these days, but I like following and reading and learning....like I'm reading Arts LS50 thread...it's interesting seeing others reactions to said speaker.
newworld
Active Member
Man, you guys are pretty intense. Go find a hobby or something.
Yeah, right now stock cords are doing a much better job of telling it like it is. I think it's a good starting point at the very least.
Which should I get next? Source or amplification? I'm badly in need of source, obviously, but my current amp will likely be replaced. Do you think DAC's can be independently chosen regardless of system matching?
Yeah, right now stock cords are doing a much better job of telling it like it is. I think it's a good starting point at the very least.
Which should I get next? Source or amplification? I'm badly in need of source, obviously, but my current amp will likely be replaced. Do you think DAC's can be independently chosen regardless of system matching?
Fusion
Active Member
This ground has been covered, right? You've got the following:
- person A, who buys a system and keeps it for decades, replacing only what needs replacing
- person B, who likes trying out new pieces of gear because this is a hobby after all and there are many different approaches to component and system building
- person C, who is unsure what he or she wants and so chases after gear in an effort to find out
IMO we shouldn't preach against any of it, especially if we have in the past played around with many different components ourselves. Even what person C does isn't so bad, since making your own mistakes is sometimes the only way to learn. As long as their income can sustain the expense or they buy used to keep the costs down. It's can be an expensive hobby, but there are many expensive hobbies out there and people who do them.
Audio is very finicky compared to something like video...buy a good quality TV set, especially in this era of high definition, and picture quality is going to be phenomenal. It won't be affected by your room (by the materials in it and room boundaries), it might be affected by the source it's connected to, however not to a very large degree. With audio, it seems even the slightest misstep can have an impact on sound, and listening to music invites a critical ear, since a system's portrayal of music could be uninvolving or just seem off, whereas with TV, well, that's story driven, so we tend to focus on the goings-on and not how sharp the picture is or how green the grass is. Perhaps we should take a cue from TV and learn to focus a bit more on the song and not it's various parts. But I guess what I'm saying is one medium lends itself to that while the other much less so.
What newworld has done is advisable of course, to test out many different speakers and get the opinion of many different people, but at the end of the day it's going to come down to how he likes his new speakers in his system and in his room. Tough to predict when you hear speakers in different rooms connected to different components. All of a sudden the ProAc's are in his room connected to his amp, which is connected to his source and now there are no guarantees. So in the end we really are on our own to figure things out.
But hopefully it works out and none of the above will be an issue.
Not sure how your particular ProAc's sound newworld, compared to my Tablette 2000 Sigs, but mine sounded their best when connected to a Tri TRV-CD4SE. A warm but very open sounding tube CD player out of Japan. Amp was a very clean and dynamic CEC AMP3300R. In replacing the Tri with my Denon, I achieved greater levels of detail and clarity, and what I felt was a more honest presentation (less warmed over). This is a big reason why I made the switch, as I wanted a source that was as real as possible, figuring that I can color the sound later on if I want to. From my CD player, I just want what is on the disc.
Oh, but that Tri sounded marvelous despite this. Music flows and the performances were captivating and a key was that each instrument sounded as I felt it should sound in terms of it's tone. Warmed over was not a concern, it was enjoyable because somehow the emotion in the music was conveyed to me, the listener. Now the Denon accomplishes this as well, but it requires a bit of care further down the chain...and part of this involved moving from Nordost cables to a warmer sounding Ultralink.
If greater clarity is what you want, this model Denon is a great choice. Built like a tank it is. Heavier than many amps. And it sounds wonderful. I agree with Kt77 that you want to build on a system's strengths, and I will keep that in mind as I hopefully finalize what I listen to (I like trying components, but I think I'm finally getting burned out on it). But there is also the possibility to having too much of a good thing, and a certain balance needs to be achieved.
Oh yes, and if you get the chance to listen to a Unison Research S6 (see my recent thread) I am sure this amp will make your ProAc's sing. ProAc's are known as very tube friendly, and the S6 is a sweetheart of a tube amp.
- person A, who buys a system and keeps it for decades, replacing only what needs replacing
- person B, who likes trying out new pieces of gear because this is a hobby after all and there are many different approaches to component and system building
- person C, who is unsure what he or she wants and so chases after gear in an effort to find out
IMO we shouldn't preach against any of it, especially if we have in the past played around with many different components ourselves. Even what person C does isn't so bad, since making your own mistakes is sometimes the only way to learn. As long as their income can sustain the expense or they buy used to keep the costs down. It's can be an expensive hobby, but there are many expensive hobbies out there and people who do them.
Audio is very finicky compared to something like video...buy a good quality TV set, especially in this era of high definition, and picture quality is going to be phenomenal. It won't be affected by your room (by the materials in it and room boundaries), it might be affected by the source it's connected to, however not to a very large degree. With audio, it seems even the slightest misstep can have an impact on sound, and listening to music invites a critical ear, since a system's portrayal of music could be uninvolving or just seem off, whereas with TV, well, that's story driven, so we tend to focus on the goings-on and not how sharp the picture is or how green the grass is. Perhaps we should take a cue from TV and learn to focus a bit more on the song and not it's various parts. But I guess what I'm saying is one medium lends itself to that while the other much less so.
What newworld has done is advisable of course, to test out many different speakers and get the opinion of many different people, but at the end of the day it's going to come down to how he likes his new speakers in his system and in his room. Tough to predict when you hear speakers in different rooms connected to different components. All of a sudden the ProAc's are in his room connected to his amp, which is connected to his source and now there are no guarantees. So in the end we really are on our own to figure things out.
But hopefully it works out and none of the above will be an issue.
Not sure how your particular ProAc's sound newworld, compared to my Tablette 2000 Sigs, but mine sounded their best when connected to a Tri TRV-CD4SE. A warm but very open sounding tube CD player out of Japan. Amp was a very clean and dynamic CEC AMP3300R. In replacing the Tri with my Denon, I achieved greater levels of detail and clarity, and what I felt was a more honest presentation (less warmed over). This is a big reason why I made the switch, as I wanted a source that was as real as possible, figuring that I can color the sound later on if I want to. From my CD player, I just want what is on the disc.
Oh, but that Tri sounded marvelous despite this. Music flows and the performances were captivating and a key was that each instrument sounded as I felt it should sound in terms of it's tone. Warmed over was not a concern, it was enjoyable because somehow the emotion in the music was conveyed to me, the listener. Now the Denon accomplishes this as well, but it requires a bit of care further down the chain...and part of this involved moving from Nordost cables to a warmer sounding Ultralink.
If greater clarity is what you want, this model Denon is a great choice. Built like a tank it is. Heavier than many amps. And it sounds wonderful. I agree with Kt77 that you want to build on a system's strengths, and I will keep that in mind as I hopefully finalize what I listen to (I like trying components, but I think I'm finally getting burned out on it). But there is also the possibility to having too much of a good thing, and a certain balance needs to be achieved.
Oh yes, and if you get the chance to listen to a Unison Research S6 (see my recent thread) I am sure this amp will make your ProAc's sing. ProAc's are known as very tube friendly, and the S6 is a sweetheart of a tube amp.
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slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Man, you guys are pretty intense. Go find a hobby or something.
Yeah, right now stock cords are doing a much better job of telling it like it is. I think it's a good starting point at the very least.
Which should I get next? Source or amplification? I'm badly in need of source, obviously, but my current amp will likely be replaced. Do you think DAC's can be independently chosen regardless of system matching?
Hey...when all you do and want to do is enjoy Your maker, family/friends, work, great food and great music, heck yeah our hobby (audio) becomes intense, music revolves around all the aforementioned.....so what else is there to do but take it seriously?! Ohhh Yeahhh:yes: And ahhhh start engaging Oscar and you will soon find out how intense our hobby can be.
You should have the best source you can afford. You can have a better source than amp for better sound quality/refinement of notes and the right amp can enhance that down the road. Unless your amp is falling apart and on 3 legs, I'd get the best source I could afford. Of course all sources are not the same sound quality wise...so once again, know what sounds move you, and for synergy of speakers......go for it.