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Speaker Wire, Gauge, etc.

musichal said:
I'm easy. If anything sounds like an improvement to someone then it is an improvement, at least for that person. If I can't hear the difference, I'm willing to take his word for it. I might not pull the trigger myself, but I don't criticize those who make the purchase. Maybe he hears differently than I, maybe better. Maybe he has deeper pockets. Best not to be too dogmatic, imo. Exposure to various dissenting opinions regarding a plethora of audio subjects among folks I respect on this site has lead me to this view, and changed my outlook gradually over the last decade. Live and let live.
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I agree with you 100% but that also works in reverse. I use 14 gauge wire (not saying that's the ultimate size) but I won't try to degrade or make snide comments about somebody who uses a smaller wire than I do because they have the freedom to do whatever they please. If a person says 20 gauge is all they need or they think that going any bigger is a waste of money that's fine with me. I'll never have the best of anything but if an improvement can be made for myself without too much expense then I'm all for it. If somebody else wants to spend more than I do then that's fine too. I'm kinda like Ricky Nelson. " You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself."

To me AK is about sharing, enjoying and learning.
 
Thrill Kille said:
Anyways, thanks, for reals, for all of the suggestions and comments. And I'd like to hear more. The more I can learn, the more I hope I can pass on.
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You sound sincere in your request, and I hope the best for you. If you're serious about cable discussions, I suggest taking it up in The Cutting Edge. A lot less yahoos and jaspers (to use a term from my hero Tom Brennan) reducing the signal to noise ratio there.

danrclem said:
I have already stated that I'm not saying that heavy wire doesn't make a difference but would like some of the science behind it. I just want to learn and in time I'll probably try heavier wire myself. I'm not arguing but just asking. There are some links in this thread that I haven't had a chance to read but fully intend to.
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DaveVoorhis already brought it up way back earlier in this thread, like the fourth reply. I just glanced at the Pass Labs link given, and it would appear there is a good source of information for you as well. Long and short of it is, no matter how long, thicker cable enables fewer spectral errors. Also, different geometries yield different measurable results.
 
Bodyblue said:
Ummm what improved sonics? Use whatever your amps instructions say to use. Like others have said, its the final connections, not the gauge of the wire that is the most important. If an amp maker says to use say 16awg wire and somebody uses 14, will there be a difference that can be measured? I am in the camp that there is nothing one can really hear by putting bigger AWG wire than the manufacturer recommends.
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ummm the improved sonics were well heard by this particular listener. YMMV.

As for the connections that is very true that they are critical. We have folks here that clean or refresh the connections of the rig at least once a year. I know I do. Although I'm changing gear all the time, there is a new year's time frame refresh of connections. Many have noticed a nice improvement in the sound of the system after doing this. I usually start a thread about that time that has many positive responses.

As far as a human being capable of measuring everything, nope, no way in hell is the human able to do that. We don't even know everything to measure so how are we going to measure something we don't know exists? Does it have an effect on sound, I don't know. No one knows. Saying the measurements will show the difference falls on deaf ears here, at least until the field of study known as science comes to an end. We are still learning. The Romans thought they knew all the science, too as do may different civilizations during mans' time on this planet. We ain't done learning.
 
danrclem said:
I agree with you 100% but that also works in reverse. I use 14 gauge wire (not saying that's the ultimate size) but I won't try to degrade or make snide comments about somebody who uses a smaller wire than I do because they have the freedom to do whatever they please. If a person says 20 gauge is all they need or they think that going any bigger is a waste of money that's fine with me. I'll never have the best of anything but if an improvement can be made for myself without too much expense then I'm all for it. If somebody else wants to spend more than I do then that's fine too. I'm kinda like Ricky Nelson. " You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself."

To me AK is about sharing, enjoying and learning.
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I missed the "reverse" part. I took no position in any direction. For instance, there was a bit of a "this thin wire sounds better" era involving a certain low-gauge Radio Shack solid-core wire about twenty years ago. We simply are in agreement.
 
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If you want the lights to properly dim in sequence with your music use the lower resistance heavier gage thicker speaker wire. This way the amplifiers do not have to push as hard and can spend more effort drawing amps from the house current. Woofer/light dimming, timing, is important.:crazy::rflmao::wtf:






ok lock the thread
 
Yep....I put that stuff on everything, especially my banana plugs.
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Actually, at least to my somewhat naive eye, as far as cable discussion threads go, this one is both civil and focused. We're not debating more abstract things like, "Do esoteric cables make a difference?" Instead we seem to be focused primarily on the discussion of the impact that a wire or cable's thickness has.

Obviously, some folks have some pretty intense feelings about things. OK. That's good. Don't forget, though, to try on a new set of ideas. Some of the proposed ideas seem pretty inexpensive. We're not talking about $35,000 for a pair of two-meter speaker cables.

Nicely done, gentlemen... Or, if you'd rather.... Way to go guys!!!
 
cwall99 said:
Actually, at least to my somewhat naive eye, as far as cable discussion threads go, this one is both civil and focused. We're not debating more abstract things like, "Do esoteric cables make a difference?" Instead we seem to be focused primarily on the discussion of the impact that a wire or cable's thickness has.

Obviously, some folks have some pretty intense feelings about things. OK. That's good. Don't forget, though, to try on a new set of ideas. Some of the proposed ideas seem pretty inexpensive. We're not talking about $35,000 for a pair of two-meter speaker cables.

Nicely done, gentlemen... Or, if you'd rather.... Way to go guys!!!
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To be realistic it's not a matter of if, it's when the inevitable lockdown occurs. Oh how I wish it were not so but experience shows that it's always the 'usual suspects' getting into the same ol' pissing contests that kills these threads. :(
 
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DaveVoorhis said:
The resistance of a wire is proportional to both its gauge and its length. The short internal runs of relatively thin wire inside an amp have very low resistance because they're short.

In general, if you're concerned about resistive losses in a speaker wire, the longer it is the thicker it should be.

There are numerous wire gauge/resistance calculators available online. E.g., https://www.cirris.com/learning-center/calculators/133-wire-resistance-calculator-table

Calculating how much energy (i.e., watts) is lost in a given length of speaker wire is left as an exercise for the reader. :biggrin:
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The main differense between me and you is that you have Your theoretic "knowledge" but close to no experiense. I have both. One of us might be a bit wrong.
 
Thrill Kille said:
I've read in another forum a good argument against smaller (12, 10, 8) gauges of cable in most systems. Especially in those less than about $7,500 or so.

Anyhoo, It was brought up, and I had to agree. That a fellow 'Phile was going to use 14 or even 16 GA wire for DIY speaker cables. Saying that [...the audio engineers at McIntosh in their good wisdom chose that size wire for the internals of their tube amps...] He wasn't sure if it was 14, or 16 GA. But he was going to find out. Paraphrasing here.. That if it was good enough for inside of the amp. Then it should be good enough to run from the amp to speaker.

So, I looked under my own MC30. And the wiring was indeed small. Looked like 16 GA and non-spiral strand(ICBW).

I do want to try this out. Also use two separate wires. And twist them together for about a 7-8 ft run.

Any thoughts on this?
Wire gauge is opposite of what you posted the larger the number the thinner the wire 1/0 would be your average main feed from your electrical panel
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In Post #32 I outlined my equipment. And my thoughts and desire to try to make my own cables. I didn't know that I almost started a war. I asked a (to me) simple question. And looking for some advice and guidance. But things kinda went sideways. If anyone wants to Hoot n Holler, go ahead. If anyone wants to give me some good sensible advice, I'll take that too. Thanks everyone.
 
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unfairlane said:
Inside an amp yeah, but outside it is all about dynamics and bass-control.

Superampman; they are blind on their ears :eek:
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Guess I don't understand this kind of reasoning. The purpose of the correct size of the speaker cable is to get as much of the signal to the transducers as possible without losses. Much of what I read or hear, i.e. skin effect, correct twist rate, right or left hand lay, etc. don't have much if any effect on audio signals. These factors only figure in with measurable results when getting into High Frequency and up (HF, VHF, UHF and microwave) signaling. I will concede that the better the conductor, lets go for gold and silver second will make some difference but only with the length/guage of the speaker wire.

When I got my Magnepan MG-II's which during that time were only available in HiEnd shops, the salesman just reeled off 25 feet of 16 gauge lamp cord for speaker wire. Still in service come to think of it.

Remember that the people who are selling this special wire cannot provide measurable concrete data as to being able to quantify their claims. I sometimes think that when approached about "what you think" or "can't you hear the difference" is a form of intimidation on the seller's part and for that matter equipment too. Good, well designed, adjusted, tweeked gear should all perform very well under the design circumstances. Yes, I think you should be able to tell the difference between a tabletop AM radio and good hifi gear.

Guess I got a little sidetracked with my rant, please forgive. I just hate wasting money and I think I can hear the difference.
 
62caddy said:
There is nothing theoretical about the effect of resistance as a function of gauge and run length. It is mathematical fact.
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Mathematically measured and engineered but more of a physical fact or fact of physics. Bottom line is wire resistance increases with length no matter how long but putting a value on this resistance it would take miles and miles of wire to see it with a ohm meter. We are talking milliohms of speaker wire that probably anyone uses. Millionths of a ohm. Take a full brand new roll of 16 gage lamp cord. On one end twist em together. On the other a ohm meter set anyway you like. You will see a dead short. 0 ohms.
Anyone concerned about the wire being thick enough for their use has the option of running power formulas at any and all frequencies produced by their amp and see if wire gage makes that much of a difference. I do not think 16 gage will do any less then 14,12,10,8 gage or even #6 ground wire.
Go the other way and 18 probably will not change sound neither will 20 gage or 22. But there are power restrictions and the reason for this as was said in the length of wire. You can amp it up, over power it and fry it but it wont sound that much different. Till it burns up.
 
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