Special turntable mats? Improvement?

[marc mc]

Holy $h1t! That is really wild! (Actually, it looks a lot like my table. I've got the same bullseye level on mine.)

By the way, how do you cool the motor?

John

Funny thing about that bullseye. I found it in an old tool box full of tools that was given to me and its the best one I have seen. Way better than the cheap ones they make today.

It would take to long to explain the motor mount so let me just say that the underside of the motor is suspended above the electronics and has free air around the top and sides.

boreas, just try lots of stuff and find what works for your situation. A friend of mine owns one of these tables. think about putting a record on copper! and any mat wrecks the sound and sucks out the life.

This is Meitners table. The one that inspired me to try platterless

My other tables are original and totally un-modded. The point again is find out for yourself what you like and want.

marc mc

 

[southp]

Um, those turntables are nuts.

Anyways, I use a cork mat like this one on my Rega P3 and I found it tightened up the bass and soundstage nicely.

 

[Mr. Record]

I didn't like the Herbies mat on my friend's TNT5, but who's to say it wouldn't sound great on another TNT, or for that matter any other table? The Ringmat, for example, seems to sound great on all the 2 piece platter tables I've heard it on (AR and Linn). I cannot speak personally for its sound on Rega glass platters, but when I used to sell 180 gram audiophile LPs, one of my customers took my recommendation and bought a Ringmat for his table (Sorry, I do not remember which Rega.) and he called back loving it.

I like the fact that most of today's better tables use really dead platters and don't need mats any more. BTW, what i mean by "don't need" refers to tables where a mat actually harms the sound. I'm not saying after market mats are band aides, but in about 1/2 of my experiences that's what they were.

I listen regularly to a friend's Well Tempered table. he does not use any kind of mat, but I vageuly recall somebody recommending a mat for them.

 

[marc mc]

The Ringmat is a piece of paper that has 2 cork rings. They work because you get the same effect as platterless. but the fact that the underside of the record is supported and the the table needs no mod means people don't tilt and freak out. But the acoustic result is the same as no mat at all.

marc mc

 

[Mr. Record]

Does "nuts" mean the tables look incredible? I used to have a 125/SME 3009 combo. That was my first good table. I liked it a lot, but going to the Luxman PD300 was a major reduction in grunge. I would LOVE to have the big Micro Seiki table. I've heard it and I know how incredible it is. Trust me, tables don't get much better than this! BTW, I wish I could afford one. If anyone wants to buy one, I know where a pristine one is.

I think the only reason why somebody wouldn't be thrilled with the Ringmat is the fact that it doesn't look like much. Let's face it, there isn't much there. I'm also not sure if anybody could explain why it or any other mat works. If so, it would always offer the same amount and type of improvement on any table, but that's not the case. I'm sure somebody also has an explanation why different types of feet sound different under a preamp or CD player? I decided to not even wonder why any of these things work, but just accept the fact that they do. This is not to say that I want to remain ignorant, but the truth is much of this will always be unexplained. It sure beats the other school which say it's all all BS!

Hey, it's nice to see that somebody still has a living Grace Ruby! Does it have much millage left on it. I never had the chance to try any of the Grace cartridges. When they were the hot item I didn't have equipment worthy of a great cartridge.

 

[marc mc]

Does "nuts"
I think the only reason why somebody wouldn't be thrilled with the Ringmat is the fact that it doesn't look like much. Let's face it, there isn't much there. I'm also not sure if anybody could explain why it or any other mat works. If so, it would always offer the same amount and type of improvement on any table, but that's not the case. I'm sure somebody also has an explanation why different types of feet sound different under a preamp or CD player? I decided to not even wonder why any of these things work, but just accept the fact that they do. This is not to say that I want to remain ignorant, but the truth is much of this will always be unexplained. It sure beats the other school which say it's all all BS!

Great stuff here. And thats the hobby for some of us. Trying different stuff and observing difference. The Ringmat becomes a part of the "system" once it's put on a platter. It does not take over the system! It becomes a part of it. Will it or any other mat effect the "system?". I say of course and it in fact must. Will it be to a large or small degree? better? worse? or undetectable? I say yes to all in different systems. Others say no.

Lets also bear in mind that most of the mats that I have tried and own, cost more than the majority are willing to spend on their turntables in the first place. So its little doubt why few try them, and why after market mats have never been a run away success. I also think that the damage to the vinyl from these tables should be of far more concern than the difference mats make!

marc mc

 

[Mr. Record]

Hi Marc,
Are you telling me you can still buy new mats? I figured they went the way of the head shell! I did notice, however, that Music Direct is selling a new head shell for some big $$. I don't want to knock them too bad, as they are old customers of mine and I know Bes and Josh pretty well, but I'm sure they would even admit that they are simply cornering what used to be a much larger market. Perhaps they sell a mat too? If not, who does?

Re. the Ringmat, it goes against all that I used to believe in. Back in the days when I was "smart" enough to know what was good and what was bad, I believed in using the hardest mat you could lay your hands on. I still feel pretty much the same, because I found soft mats (Remember the Torumat?) were just bandaids for ringing platters. One thing is for sure, if your platter has a bad ring, chuck the table before trying mats. BTW, I feel the same about surfaces under power amps. I like both tube and transistor amps on hard surfaces. One of my favorite tweaks are the red cement squares from Home Depot. They are cheap and they sound great under amps. IMH, once you get one of them under your amp you are ready to proceed with tube rolling or experiments with speaker cables and interconnects. Think this sounds bad? Hardly! You should have heard my Quad 2s! The friend I sold them too (a mistake!) used them on a marble slab. I could have done that too, but then the tweak would have been more than $2!

 

[theophile]

With regard to headshells:

Yes,they make a difference also.:yes:

I agree with marc mc.The inclusion of any new additional substitute item in a system(mat for mat,headshell for headshell etc etc)becomes part of the system.
No-one can truly predict the effect that the substitution will have.Neither the type of effect nor the degree.
Such is the synergy of the constituent parts of(especially analogue)hi-fi systems.

That also is why I haven't posted(in this thread)exactly which mat or headshell I am using.
People need to do their homework.There are sound logical reasons why some solutions aren't universal.Consumers need to understand the principles and concepts behind some ideas first.

 

[thedelihaus]

a good percentage of AK users use vintage TTs with aluminum platters.

Most of these platters ring like a bell.

If your platter rings like a bell, perhaps a platter mat is a good investment.




I have a couple Japanese TTs that indeed have platters that ring. For the most part, the stock mats are just fine for my use.

Doesn't stop me from wanting to experiment though.

 

[thedelihaus]

As for some of the more expensive headshells, certain models feature azimuth adjustment- hence the increased cost.

Is it something you need? Yes, if you're concerned about azimuth issues.

 

[PacificStereo]

Marc, that's very sweet.

I used to be a Meitner dealer- liked a lot of that stuff.

I agree, there ought to be a sticky on this.

 

[Mark W.]

I use a Herbie as I suggested on my Pro-Ject RM-5 which has a MDF platter so not much ringing. I like the mat for it's physical properties not any audio improvement. it might have an audio improvement or change but since the table and it's system was down for repairs for 3 months before I put the new mat on it there is no way my auditory memory is good enough to know.

But it's NON static non dust collecting NON coming off the platter every time I pickup a Record is a HUGE improvement in my book over the black felt mat I was using.

And it looks cool.

Does it improve my sound hmm lets just say sure.

 

[cwall99]

I have a mat I've been using on my table since about 1982 or so by Mission (I think it's another Canadian company). I have no idea what it's made out of, but it's a really weird, sticky rubber. I also have a platform made by Mission that has four feet made out of the same rubbery material (the sales guy, probably full of garbage, told me that the rubber, if applied to the exterior of a submarine in a thick enough quantity, would render the submarine invisible to sonar - yeah, right). Nevertheless, this Mission mat and platform, along with an inexpensive clamp has pretty much rendered my system immune from resonant feedback or whatever the heck it's called.

I think it's a worthwhile investment.

 

[theophile]

I have a mat I've been using on my table since about 1982 or so by Mission (I think it's another Canadian company). I have no idea what it's made out of, but it's a really weird, sticky rubber. I also have a platform made by Mission that has four feet made out of the same rubbery material (the sales guy, probably full of garbage, told me that the rubber, if applied to the exterior of a submarine in a thick enough quantity, would render the submarine invisible to sonar - yeah, right). Nevertheless, this Mission mat and platform, along with an inexpensive clamp has pretty much rendered my system immune from resonant feedback or whatever the heck it's called.

I think it's a worthwhile investment.

Both those Mission(an English company)products (the mat and the feet of the platform)are made of Sorbothane.The platform was named the 'Isoplat'.

 

[Mr. Record]

Frankly speaking, the best thing that could ever happen is the reintroduction of things like mats, head shells, and any other kinds of analog tweak. Perhaps these things will call attention to those who haven't been enlightened by the joy of playing records. Perhaps I'm just a dreamer!

Now, if only these things can be made affordable!

 

[cwall99]

Both those Mission(an English company)products (the mat and the feet of the platform)are made of Sorbothane.The platform was named the 'Isoplat'.

Thanks Theophile. I appreciate the corrections and updates. If I recall, the goal of the mat was to dampen out any sort of feedback or vibration generated by the contact with the stylus (so that the only thing moving, besides the LP spinning, is the stylus). The Isoplat was supposed to dampen out vibration coming up through the floor.

And the clamp?

It just looked cool. Still does. Still have all this stuff. No, I think the clamp assisted the sorbothane mat in dampening out unwanted crud.

I'm sure there are lots of folks here who know a lot more about it than I do.

 

[marc mc]

And the clamp?

It just looked cool. Still does. Still have all this stuff. No, I think the clamp assisted the sorbothane mat in dampening out unwanted crud.

And IMO a good portion of the musics dynamics.

marc mc

 

[theophile]

I agree that clamps,weights work in specific instances.In other instances they interfere with the carefully decided resonant frequency of the sprung suspension system.
In this respect alone,non-suspended turntables have an advantage.

Like I reminded earlier,It profits the user of analogue vinyl playback to understand basic principles and concepts which underlie the operation of the analogue medium.

Two cave-men who are cold have access to plenty of dry wood.Only one has knowledge of how to extract fire from the dry wood.Therefore the one without knowledge will remain cold,despite having the raw material at hand.

We all have the raw material at hand:Our turntables,arms cartridges and phono stages.Yet many are unable to extract from them the utmost.The difference is a little knowledge.There are plenty of very detailed websites which take one through the steps.Take time to learn.

Knowledge is power.

 

[cwall99]

And IMO a good portion of the musics dynamics

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that the mat/isolation stuff on my table really tightened the focus and imagery on my table. I dunno how to explain it. But when you say the "musics (sic) dynamics," are you inferring that the dynamic range, or the variation between quiet and loud passages in the music, is somehow reduced?

Cuz I have this awesome 1980 Telarc pressing of the 1812 Overture that plays much better (tighter, less slop, etc...) during the piece's climactic passages when I use the mat and clamp.

It's actually a pretty cool recording. you can actually see the grooves spread way out for those cannon shots. There's so much room for those cannon shots that the vinyl looks more like the blank lead-in at the start of an album than the groove in the middle of a piece. But the thing is, there is so much in the way of dynamics there that I can't listen to the piece very loud. It's fun just to watch the woofers jump as they try to keep up with the blasts.

So, in that sense of dynamics being the range of loud to soft, I'm pretty confident that I'm not losing any of that. In terms of imagery and focus, I listen to my vinyl in stereo (I don't engage the other three channels in the system when I listen to vinyl - just the four channels I use to drive the main left and rights), but I keep getting up just to check that nothing's coming out of the center speaker. And there's great depth to the imagery, too. Ringo's drum kit, for instance, on my MoFi pressing of Abbey Road is behind Paul, John, and George.

And I know my cart is not that great. Good, but not the best. And while we haven't operationally defined what you meant by dynamics, I'm gonna assume you meant dynamic range as I've defined above. But going on what I've heard both with and without these tweaks, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with your presumption that a system you've never heard is losing dynamics because it's dampening out unwanted vibration.

 

[marc mc]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that the mat/isolation stuff on my table really tightened the focus and imagery on my table. I dunno how to explain it. But when you say the "musics (sic) dynamics," are you inferring that the dynamic range, or the variation between quiet and loud passages in the music, is somehow reduced?

Yes the range between quite and loud passages is my definition of dynamics. Without knowing what table and cart your using its hard to comment on your system. If it is a budget rig with little or no mass, then yes the mat would tighten things up because the mat would be taming the system, and dealing with the energy the table/arm and or arm, can't deal with. Notice I said can't deal with. But when the table can deal with all the evergy created at the point of contact. The dynamics go up and IMO adding certain mats will take dynamics away. Of course there are exceptions to the general rule. But i won't give up low level information, detail and dynamics for dampening.

Cuz I have this awesome 1980 Telarc pressing of the 1812 Overture that plays much better (tighter, less slop, etc...) during the piece's climactic passages when I use the mat and clamp.

Very dynamic piece and makes my statement above even more relavent. The loud stuff takes care of itself, it's the low level detail and information on records that I am always chasing.

And I know my cart is not that great. Good, but not the best. And while we haven't operationally defined what you meant by dynamics, I'm gonna assume you meant dynamic range as I've defined above. But going on what I've heard both with and without these tweaks, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with your presumption that a system you've never heard is losing dynamics because it's dampening out unwanted vibration.

Like I said if it's a budget set up it's not presumption, and I do understand what your hearing and why your hearing it. IMO when the table,arm and cart are designed well and working together, their is no "unwanted" vibration. Thats why my friend can place the record on a copper platter.

marc mc