Jim Hagerman
Member
Yes. The tradeoff is noise floor. You need as much gain from first stage to get out of noise versus overloading second stage. You can play games with gain for each stage, but I don't think you will get a more optimum tradeoff.
The best phono preamp under $1000 (aka the Hagerman Bugle upgrade thread)
- Thread starter oranda
- Start date
Yes. The tradeoff is noise floor. You need as much gain from first stage to get out of noise versus overloading second stage. You can play games with gain for each stage, but I don't think you will get a more optimum tradeoff.
desertrat748
Super Member
That’s good to know. I have mine somewhere in that lower range and it works great with some of my hotter mm/mi carts like the Empire 66 or Nagaoka MP-200 but isn’t quite enough for the lower output Empire 2000z. I can’t get much past 70% max volume with the Empire 66 via Bugle2 but I am able to max it out with the 2000z and its lower output.
Specs for the 66 vs 2000z are given as 7 mV for 66 vs 4 mV for the 2000z.
Regardless, the noise floor is very acceptable to my ears. I’m able to max out 125 watts/channel and barely hear any noise with either cart. Pops and clicks are not an issue with either but are definitely less noticeable with the lower output carts.
I am contemplating bringing up the gain closer to 38-40 dB on the bugle to get a little more than what I am seeing now. Some albums just need a bit more.
Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
desertrat748
Super Member
Thanks! My memory is not as good as it used to be. I was thinking that it sure sounded like it was lower than 4mV. Makes even more sense now. I went and dug up the original box and found the spec sheet. 3mV! Ha.
Empire 2000Z output is 3 mV.
To make matters worse Empire has printed out various output specs for the 66 (there are a ton of different models for the 66) and they do have different output specs printed out for them. I must have 5-6 different 66 versions/clones but the one I am using is hot.
I was challenged with that 7mV output spec on the big empire thread but I dug out the spec sheet and it definitely shows 7mV for that particular 66.
It’s all relative though because the difference between the two and even the difference between the Z and the Naga are extreme. It’s so noticeable though in application. I think I will have to reconfigure the gain on the bugle.
The only difference between the 2000T and the 2000Z is going to be that the 2000Z bodies that didn’t pass the rigorous +\- 1dB across the freq response were relabeled as the 2000T. It’s also a moot point because actual measurements by reviewers were all over the place and usually quite different than what was shown on the spec sheets.
Descartridge
Stereos been berry, berry good to me!
Where can this bugle2 be purchased?
oranda
Active Member
The Bugle 2 had been discontinued, but you can buy the Bugle 3 in kit form off the Hagerman Audio Labs Website under the "kits" link: Bugle 3 kit
Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
Yeah, Empire made a ton of cartridges. Hard to keep track of every model.
Using the "T" stylus in my 2000Z cartridge. The original "Z" cantilever looks to be a bit thinner compared to the "T" stylus.
desertrat748
Super Member
I don’t believe that empire made a separate cart body n motor between the two. Should be the same.
They will work well with the bugle as long as it has the 40dB of gain and not the modified 34dB gain like I did.
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Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
Yes, same body but with a very slight difference in cantilever. My phono preamp has different gain settings, 40db is the lowest setting for MM & MI cartridges. Use that setting mostly for those cartridges. Empire is a MI cartridge, if you didn't know that.
desertrat748
Super Member
Do you have pics of the two different cantilevers? Are you using a bugle3 for your preamp?
Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
I can take photo of the two cantilevers. I think I still have the "Z" stylus. Using a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II phono preamp with it's many adjustments.
Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
Empire "Z" on left. Empire "T" on right. It looks like the Z has a tiny bit thinner tapered cantilever at the end.
desertrat748
Super Member
Probably should move all the Empire talk to the big Empire thread as I don’t want to get all off topic. My concern was how low the 2000z output was and how much gain the Bugle2 would require for a paltry 3 mV of output that the Z is presenting.
Ilikevinyl
Cool Breeze
Yeah, might as well post my photos to the Empire thread.
desertrat748
Super Member
Speaking of gain and the bugle2, I cannot find my bugle2 manual and I am searching everywhere for it.
Does anyone know which resistors provide the gain? I am not sure if it’s the r3 & r8? for the bugle2?
Edit. I found my copy. All is well.
Does anyone know which resistors provide the gain? I am not sure if it’s the r3 & r8? for the bugle2?
Edit. I found my copy. All is well.
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desertrat748
Super Member
So rumor has it that the opa2210 op amp will be offered for the Bugle mc (latest version) and it provides lower noise by 4dB. I starting to think that Oranda fella knows something!
Other rumors about the performance should provide some insight about the improvements soon.
All I know is that if these upgrades are being made at the factory, they definitely aren’t subjective.
Edit: Who here has actually made a few of the mods?
Other rumors about the performance should provide some insight about the improvements soon.
All I know is that if these upgrades are being made at the factory, they definitely aren’t subjective.
Edit: Who here has actually made a few of the mods?
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knotscott
Super Member
As you know from my post, I did pretty much the Full Monte to my Bugle 3, plus custom power supply, but I was just wondering the same thing recently....how many others who didn't post here about it, have done even the slightest mods to their Bugles?
desertrat748
Super Member
Well I haven’t seen much posted lately but good things take time.
Props to @oranda as his suggestions reached Jim Hagerman and the opa 2210 implemented into the Bugle MC after Jim measured the performance w ~ 6dB lower noise floor. That was with just one 2210 op amp being installed.
There are some naysayers who thought Oranda’s choice of 2210 was not a good choice, but they are wrong in their opinion.
Here’s a recent review, https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/hagerman_bugle_opa2210_e.html
Props to @oranda as his suggestions reached Jim Hagerman and the opa 2210 implemented into the Bugle MC after Jim measured the performance w ~ 6dB lower noise floor. That was with just one 2210 op amp being installed.
There are some naysayers who thought Oranda’s choice of 2210 was not a good choice, but they are wrong in their opinion.
Here’s a recent review, https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/hagerman_bugle_opa2210_e.html
[Listening test] Hagerman Audio Labs Bugle MC Phono Preamplifier, with OPA2210 opamps
Hagerman Audio Labs Bugle MC, a phono preamp with upgraded OPA2210 opamps; a review by M.L. Gneier on TNT Audio
www.tnt-audio.com
desertrat748
Super Member
What I really like here is that the use of the opa2210 drops the noise floor by 6dB! I recall seeing a few posts about the use of the opa2210, in simulation, measuring “higher” in noise and something about it not being designed for audio. But neither of these were true and actually the opposite of the truth. I hope Oranda will reply if I am mistaken..
In real life objective measurements, Jim has shown that it is indeed lower when the opa2210 is installed.
Subjectively we have the above review w TNT! Nice job Oranda and all!
The world is saying nay to the ‘naysayers’ both objectively and subjectively. Ironically so at that.
