If you can physically move your Heil (e.g., on a separate stand), and have an RTA, you can watch the difference in the spectrum as you move the Heil to get optimum placement for the smoothest curve.
The Original 10" ESS AMT1 Full Restoration, Alnico Re-cone. Heil Restoration.
If you can physically move your Heil (e.g., on a separate stand), and have an RTA, you can watch the difference in the spectrum as you move the Heil to get optimum placement for the smoothest curve.
Per Rick's suggestion I moved the Heils back an inch on one pair of our AMT Monitors, compared to the original-position pair and did like the change so did the second pair also. On the version 5 AMT monitors you will need to carve a small amount of the brace away to clear the back of the Heil, on V4 and before not necessary as that was before the Heil was mounted on an upward angled wedge.
I've read that they recommend it on the smaller AMT 1-A/B/C also.
I've read that they recommend it on the smaller AMT 1-A/B/C also.
jcidave
Well-Known Member
SaturationPt: I think you are more in tune with the various versions of the Monitor cabinet than I am. What do you consider the first version, AMT3s? I have AMT 1A Monitors and then a second pair of AMT Monitors with the Bextrene woofer which came with a fabric surround that had been doped with some goo that had dried up making the surrounds stiff like a starched shirt collar. They were so dry and hard they had actually split. I had to refoam those drivers. I know at one point they made the monitor all in black. They also made a Monitor in a cabinet that kinda looked like an AMT6. What do you consider to be the various versions?
Sure.
I'll have have to try it again-as I have modified the crossover since that time.
The only issue I see with the AMT3's is the possible reflections from that extra inch from the top of the cabinet-probably why it was installed that way in the first place-but some felt should take care of that-thanks!
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The AMT 1A/B/C/D have the major revision in the letter, but knowing ESS there could well be minor revisions also. @automojo has at least two versions of the Rock Monitor, they made a ported and sealed version and likely others as well.
In the AMT Monitor, there are many revisions but I like to look at four/five. I'm going from memory now, ... it's been a couple of years. The AMT Monitor and AMT 1-x share the same woofer, passive, and Heil hardware, and chaged around the same time. All AMT Monitors have cast frame 12" woofer and passive and a higher-quality crossover than any other ESS made at the time, but there are several versions of each.
The first AMT Monitors had silver Heil tweeters, an easy tell-tale, later versions have the black ones. The first version also had flat foam-over-styrofoam passives, with pulp-cone woofers, IIRC all with foam surrounds. The second version (might be when they changed to the black Heil) changed to Bextrene woofers, the third version also had Bextrene, both the woofer and passive were then the same cast basket and cone assembly, the passive was simply missing the magnet assembly and coil assembly. Both (I believe) now had the doped fabric surrounds. The Bextrene woofers also have a double dust-cap, likely for rigidity (photo shows the upper/active with only the inner dust-cap) Fourth version is I believe when they went to rubber surrounds, fifth version they tilted the Heil back a few degrees and eliminated the holes in the sides of the upper cabinet area (adjacent the Heil).
I'm not sure where some of the other changes were made, some in specs and some in hardware. I believe that the early monitors were spec'd as the below image down to 30Hz, but later were 25Hz? Might have added mass to the passive radiator (not sure), the spec image below I believe to be version 2.
The crossover changed at least once. The crossover was much better than any of the other ess offerings IMO, allowed direct access to the woofer and tweeter (tweeter in later one I believe had capacitor protection, this from memory) without the crossover. The later version (second one in photos below) added more circuitry but I believe that all of the designs incorporated three air-core inductors (not bad for a 2-way crossover), just that the later version has 2 capacitors added. The S/N of the early one shown is around 1500 IIRC (V3, fabric surrounds & Bextrene cones on woofers and passives, flat-mounted tweeter, side-vents, flat platform), later one around 7900 (rubber surrounds, tilted tweeter, no side-vents, boxed-riser). Also I remember that the crossover point was changed between 800Hz and 1kHz, don't remember when that was and which way it went. I'm pretty sure that the early ones were 1kHz (the below spec) and later ones were 800Hz, but if you bought the active crossover designed for the AMT Monitor it was variable anyway or if you bi-amp like many of us do you just find the sweet-spot with REW and go from there.
The ESS AMT Monitor and ESS Rock Monitor shared the Heil tweeter, and the box. Really nothing else. The Rock Monitor was introduced part-way into the production of the Monitor with a simple 3-way crossover, no direct-wire options, and depending on the version smaller stamped-frame woofer and midrange that were purchased not made-to-order. It was only built two years I believe so unfortunately didn't benefit from advances in design like the longer-running models, too bad really because it had great bones. Still, there were multiple versions so maybe if it continued it might have gotten a crossover and driver upgrade and become more like @automojo has created in his FrankenHeil, great bones can become great speakers.
The other shortcoming in both of these models (IMO of course) is the grille design, difficult to remove completely, difficult to handle, easy to break the frame, just not a robust design. They also have a lot of edges, with the side panels sticking out beyond the woofers and the grille frames having holes not much larger than the woofers, ... "edge diffraction" is certainly a concern. The basic "box in a box" design though? The side panels are applied to what is already a solid-sided box, adding more strength (and weight) to these ~100lb speakers and at least the AMT Monitor version is braced well (not sure on the Rock Monitors). The 1-A/etc. had a similarly often damaged (upper) grlle frame until the last (-D) version which is a little stronger.
Anyway, more than you asked, sorry.
Attachments
Great point. I'm not sure whether the tilt-up on the V5 was to reduce that or to improve vertical soundfield, being as tall as they are it didn't make a lot of sense to me that the dispersion wasn't already adequate so you might be on to someting.
Nice descriptions-thanks!
AMT3's-no bracing-and the 3 hole baffle leaves alot to be desired-especially with any heavy aftermarket woofers.
I made simple but effective braces between the woofer openings-and the upper woofer/midrange opening.
1x2, or 1x3"'s-screwed and glued from the front.
And simple wood C"'s-screwed and glued to the sides-with the C opening towards the baffle-on each end of the brace-to tie everything in.
Wool felt covering each brace.
Night and day difference in the knuckle rap test.
As mentioned double thick sides are fine.
I coated the interiors with a ceramic bead based dampener-including the mid tubes-and foam lined the complete interior.
Bass is clean, tight and deep with 1040Sf's-on are leaks or buzzing. The bass/midbass detail is unreal-never heard a speaker quite like this.
With my current wood floor-I use four 6x2" cork rubber blocks @ Amazon (Stereophile used them with the latest Klipsch Forte test) to tighten the bass further.
I really like the sound of the new production diaphragms.
I also think the Great Heil is worthy of using much better caps to really open it up-to it's full extent.
And worth the time to review Gee Humble cap test.
From what I have learned-the Heil is so transparent-it pretty much sounds like the cap you have connected to it.
For example:
Daytons-Poly's-they sound greyed over and flat. Solens-overly bright-that masks the detail-and upper midbass. Audyn's bright and compressed. Any of these-better off with stock eletrolytics-IMHO.
Best caps I have found to work with the Great Heil IMHO are Mundorf Evo Oil's/Jantzen Superior Z's. The refinement and opening up of inner detail you have never heard from is well worth the price of admission.
I realize i have mentioned this more then a few times-but it was such a worthwhile improvement IMHO-to have a compatible cap feeding the Great Heil. Expensive-yes-but you have to look at as solid added value to your listening experience.
And frankly if your not up cash wise to going this route-IMHO a good electrolyte is probably a better option sound wise-Mundorf/Erse. At least your less likely to color the Heil sound with a run of the mill poly cap. Again-I would save your pennies/be patient-install a proper cap.
IMHO they are worthy of thoughtful mods
AMT3's-no bracing-and the 3 hole baffle leaves alot to be desired-especially with any heavy aftermarket woofers.
I made simple but effective braces between the woofer openings-and the upper woofer/midrange opening.
1x2, or 1x3"'s-screwed and glued from the front.
And simple wood C"'s-screwed and glued to the sides-with the C opening towards the baffle-on each end of the brace-to tie everything in.
Wool felt covering each brace.
Night and day difference in the knuckle rap test.
As mentioned double thick sides are fine.
I coated the interiors with a ceramic bead based dampener-including the mid tubes-and foam lined the complete interior.
Bass is clean, tight and deep with 1040Sf's-on are leaks or buzzing. The bass/midbass detail is unreal-never heard a speaker quite like this.
With my current wood floor-I use four 6x2" cork rubber blocks @ Amazon (Stereophile used them with the latest Klipsch Forte test) to tighten the bass further.
I really like the sound of the new production diaphragms.
I also think the Great Heil is worthy of using much better caps to really open it up-to it's full extent.
And worth the time to review Gee Humble cap test.
From what I have learned-the Heil is so transparent-it pretty much sounds like the cap you have connected to it.
For example:
Daytons-Poly's-they sound greyed over and flat. Solens-overly bright-that masks the detail-and upper midbass. Audyn's bright and compressed. Any of these-better off with stock eletrolytics-IMHO.
Best caps I have found to work with the Great Heil IMHO are Mundorf Evo Oil's/Jantzen Superior Z's. The refinement and opening up of inner detail you have never heard from is well worth the price of admission.
I realize i have mentioned this more then a few times-but it was such a worthwhile improvement IMHO-to have a compatible cap feeding the Great Heil. Expensive-yes-but you have to look at as solid added value to your listening experience.
And frankly if your not up cash wise to going this route-IMHO a good electrolyte is probably a better option sound wise-Mundorf/Erse. At least your less likely to color the Heil sound with a run of the mill poly cap. Again-I would save your pennies/be patient-install a proper cap.
IMHO they are worthy of thoughtful mods
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I followed your mods on the 3s, excellent work IMO. I have seen a couple of pairs of 3s for sale within driving distance and have considered getting a pair to play with, but have always felt that ESS didn't go all-in with their driver selection so I'd need to automojo them.
I think that they did do what they could with the AMT Monitors, but there are a couple of people who have upgraded the woofers on them to help the woofers and tweeters match more seamlessly. The crossovers are decent, but typical of higher-order passive crossovers there is enough phase-shift at the crossover point that they really don't have the single source of presentation that they do with biamping. The new woofers are supposed to do it better, I haven't yet chosen to "invest" in Ricky's new woofers though, and am considering trying a pair of JBL 2216NDs (the woofers from the M2 monitors) to see if I can improve on the design, not sure what to do with the passives though, might be some mass experimentation.
Caps in both sets are still original, if I get back to using them with the crossover this certainly needs to be addressed (along with the much hated spring-terminals for full-range connections).
Did you do anything different with the grille frames on yours or just run without them? Diffraction problems? With the smaller drivers in the 3s you have more baffle between the driver and edges so maybe not as much of a concern.
I think that they did do what they could with the AMT Monitors, but there are a couple of people who have upgraded the woofers on them to help the woofers and tweeters match more seamlessly. The crossovers are decent, but typical of higher-order passive crossovers there is enough phase-shift at the crossover point that they really don't have the single source of presentation that they do with biamping. The new woofers are supposed to do it better, I haven't yet chosen to "invest" in Ricky's new woofers though, and am considering trying a pair of JBL 2216NDs (the woofers from the M2 monitors) to see if I can improve on the design, not sure what to do with the passives though, might be some mass experimentation.
Caps in both sets are still original, if I get back to using them with the crossover this certainly needs to be addressed (along with the much hated spring-terminals for full-range connections).
Did you do anything different with the grille frames on yours or just run without them? Diffraction problems? With the smaller drivers in the 3s you have more baffle between the driver and edges so maybe not as much of a concern.
Thanks!
Not bad for a novice...just wanted to make things easy for the average Joe like myself.
With the aftermarkets woofers-been trying to get Misco in Minneapolis to make a close copy of the Eminece 1040SF-one with parimeters more dialed in for the 2.7 cu-with 2x10" woofers.
Even as is-and the proper damping sealed-the stock 1040's are fine-but matched on the button would be ideal.
But none left to be had.
Frankly Misco's Legacy 10" 4 ohm woofer would work great-if they through in a 8 ohm voice coil.
They work great in AMT1's-sealed. Or ESS's over stuffed ported boxes. Better sealed IMHO.
Same with the mid-stock parameters would be fine.
The Alpha 6A works well if it fits your midtube-but it needs a l-pad to dial it down.
Unfortunately I have not found a suitable mid replacement for the small midtube models
The stock paper foam mid works well IMHO.
Misco got scared-they thought I wanted a copy of a current production woofer-and haven't been able to rekindle the interest.
Oh well.
Getting them to make a 8ohm Legacy 10" woofer may be the easiest.
Sure-there are some diffractions issues-but don't seem to a glaring deficiency.
ESS would have been better of either making the bass box bigger-by moving the baffle flush with the side boards like the rear-of just plain thicker/braced baffle.
And then a sock-or traditional grill
Still the stock grill boards here-with Mojotone Blue Jeans cloth-and Mojotone red cloth for the second pair-which ESS drilled a bunch of holes in the top board. Later production pair no holes
A real pain to install-stiff and thick.
But it gives it a vintage look that doesn't say old-like the Ron Burgandy Burlap.
The recessed front baffle-as mentioned-not perfect-or ideal diffraction wise like a flat front.
But they do project sound in way you don't get from modern slim towers-they throw a wall of sound-and make their presence know, but not in a obtrusive, get outta my way like a big Klipsch-Cornwall-Forte etc.
Refined-full range, hyper detailed, and musical.
But still kicks ass when the knob is turned to the right!
Bass attack is something else-and can be quite starling if you aren't familiar with clean efficient speaker sound at cruising levels..
IMHO they sound best toed in. Not against the wall. Stock woofers, you needed help from the wall!!
Frankly the 1040SF's and their deep sealed "quick" bass makes the difference.
They are amazing-with a clean 28hz tone.
But even clean bass, adequate bass down to 40hz-with room gain would have been fine.
In a backwards way-this points to the biggest issue with the AMT3-the stock woofers.
Poor deep bass response, fairly low output-compared to the Heil. These all equal to making a bright-thin sounding system in a lot of listening rooms.
That was always the knock with the 3's.
Where's the bass???
Most people would rather have deep, or at least adequate bass response to match the Great Heil, (like the Monitors) and forgo dealing with the midrange hole-vs a speaker from midbass on up is darn near perfect-but lousy bass response-especially for a giant speaker.
And instead of stuffing a box with band aid stuffing-make a truly sealed speaker with superior transient response.
That's what makes the Mojo 3's what they are.
The other things, like caps, new diaphragms is just fine tuning.
IMHO-it would not be so much worth the effort without dealing with the bass issue.
Not bad for a novice...just wanted to make things easy for the average Joe like myself.
With the aftermarkets woofers-been trying to get Misco in Minneapolis to make a close copy of the Eminece 1040SF-one with parimeters more dialed in for the 2.7 cu-with 2x10" woofers.
Even as is-and the proper damping sealed-the stock 1040's are fine-but matched on the button would be ideal.
But none left to be had.
Frankly Misco's Legacy 10" 4 ohm woofer would work great-if they through in a 8 ohm voice coil.
They work great in AMT1's-sealed. Or ESS's over stuffed ported boxes. Better sealed IMHO.
Same with the mid-stock parameters would be fine.
The Alpha 6A works well if it fits your midtube-but it needs a l-pad to dial it down.
Unfortunately I have not found a suitable mid replacement for the small midtube models
The stock paper foam mid works well IMHO.
Misco got scared-they thought I wanted a copy of a current production woofer-and haven't been able to rekindle the interest.
Oh well.
Getting them to make a 8ohm Legacy 10" woofer may be the easiest.
Sure-there are some diffractions issues-but don't seem to a glaring deficiency.
ESS would have been better of either making the bass box bigger-by moving the baffle flush with the side boards like the rear-of just plain thicker/braced baffle.
And then a sock-or traditional grill
Still the stock grill boards here-with Mojotone Blue Jeans cloth-and Mojotone red cloth for the second pair-which ESS drilled a bunch of holes in the top board. Later production pair no holes
A real pain to install-stiff and thick.
But it gives it a vintage look that doesn't say old-like the Ron Burgandy Burlap.
The recessed front baffle-as mentioned-not perfect-or ideal diffraction wise like a flat front.
But they do project sound in way you don't get from modern slim towers-they throw a wall of sound-and make their presence know, but not in a obtrusive, get outta my way like a big Klipsch-Cornwall-Forte etc.
Refined-full range, hyper detailed, and musical.
But still kicks ass when the knob is turned to the right!
Bass attack is something else-and can be quite starling if you aren't familiar with clean efficient speaker sound at cruising levels..
IMHO they sound best toed in. Not against the wall. Stock woofers, you needed help from the wall!!
Frankly the 1040SF's and their deep sealed "quick" bass makes the difference.
They are amazing-with a clean 28hz tone.
But even clean bass, adequate bass down to 40hz-with room gain would have been fine.
In a backwards way-this points to the biggest issue with the AMT3-the stock woofers.
Poor deep bass response, fairly low output-compared to the Heil. These all equal to making a bright-thin sounding system in a lot of listening rooms.
That was always the knock with the 3's.
Where's the bass???
Most people would rather have deep, or at least adequate bass response to match the Great Heil, (like the Monitors) and forgo dealing with the midrange hole-vs a speaker from midbass on up is darn near perfect-but lousy bass response-especially for a giant speaker.
And instead of stuffing a box with band aid stuffing-make a truly sealed speaker with superior transient response.
That's what makes the Mojo 3's what they are.
The other things, like caps, new diaphragms is just fine tuning.
IMHO-it would not be so much worth the effort without dealing with the bass issue.
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jcidave
Well-Known Member
SaturationPt: Thanks for all the great detail. I do recognize alot of the different features you mention. I will differ from you on the timing of the AMT3. Since I was working for an ESS dealer in the mid to late 70's, the AMT 3 was part of the original lineup and we had all out on display at one point in time or another. This included: AMT 1s, AMT3s, AMT4s AMT5s AMT1 Towers. All these were stamped frame woofer speakers. The first of the cast woofer frame speakers came out together and that ended most of the original lineup. AMT1a, AMT1aMonitor, AMT1aBookshelf. AMT10B bookshelf. I remember we were surprised with the intro of the 10B as they jumped ahead with a Bextrene cone and the other cast frame woofers all had paper.
In its short lifespan, I know the AMT3 had some variations. One pair with no port is for sale right now on Ebay.
I have some 80s-90s ESS brochures and will try to post some Monitor pics.
In its short lifespan, I know the AMT3 had some variations. One pair with no port is for sale right now on Ebay.
I have some 80s-90s ESS brochures and will try to post some Monitor pics.
Yes Some AMT3's were ported-some not.
Some also had 4ohm stamped frame woofers-Peerless 4 ohm mids-with rubber surrounds, and a 12 resistor Zobel in the bass circuit-along with 4 inductors coils-instead of the more common 3.
These would be a interesting project.
Fairly simple-build a bigger bass box-with removable rear panel for a 15" woofer-and Audex Mid driver-frankly one of the finest mid drivers out there.
Then just attach the sides.
Note the fairly regular grill board, and glass top-in addition to the removable back-and external crossover for the Great Heil
Audio Mart Elites
Fairly simple-build a bigger bass box-with removable rear panel for a 15" woofer-and Audex Mid driver-frankly one of the finest mid drivers out there.
Then just attach the sides.
Note the fairly regular grill board, and glass top-in addition to the removable back-and external crossover for the Great Heil
Audio Mart Elites
IMHO I would have a thicker baffle for the Gauss woofer.
Also note-fairly flush baffle.
Fairly easy-well one could have a cabinet maker/wood shop whip up a couple of these bass boxes/mid box if you lacked the skills/equipment.
This IMHO was what the AMT3 should have been.
Also note-fairly flush baffle.
Fairly easy-well one could have a cabinet maker/wood shop whip up a couple of these bass boxes/mid box if you lacked the skills/equipment.
This IMHO was what the AMT3 should have been.
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I have always been a 3-way fan, but there are distinct advantages to 2-way (and of course full-range) designs. The Monitors surprised me, didn’t think I’d ever like a large 2-way, felt 2-way was a good bookshelf solution but not for real bass on up.
The main disadvantage IMO was the passive crossover, mostly the phase distortion part of the crossover, in three-way you have twice as many (don’t even talk about the 4-way unless they’re really high-end). Then DSPs got good enough to take away that disadvantage, so biamping with a DSP or even a good active crossover you could do better than any passive (IMO of course).
The big ESSs certainly seem like a great sandbox, leave only the Heil and cabinet and you can do a lot of experimenting. I had been thinking for a while about doing just that with one pair, seeing what I can do with the box and re-populating it, maybe a big woofer in a sealed cabinet, maybe stick with the active-passive design, maybe go tuned port, ... but then I keep coming back to the realization that I should just design a cabinet around the woofer I want and add a big Heil to it, leave these alone. I would be very disappointed to tear these apart thinking I can do better and fail, I really like them as-is. Sometimes being a tinkerer can make a mess of things.
They really are very good, it takes a speaker well above their current $1,000-$1,500 (guessing here) value to do better, I’ve had these for a long time and many more **valuable** and expensive speakers have come and gone. They’re very musical, reasonably flat, reach low, have that ‘floating in air” sound from the Heils, ... I just can’t let them go. You know when there’s just something so right about the sound but you can’t really point to any one thing? Yes the stock crossover point needs some massaging (although my crossover caps are original so that might be part of it, ya think?) but pretty impressive by any measure IMO.
The main disadvantage IMO was the passive crossover, mostly the phase distortion part of the crossover, in three-way you have twice as many (don’t even talk about the 4-way unless they’re really high-end). Then DSPs got good enough to take away that disadvantage, so biamping with a DSP or even a good active crossover you could do better than any passive (IMO of course).
The big ESSs certainly seem like a great sandbox, leave only the Heil and cabinet and you can do a lot of experimenting. I had been thinking for a while about doing just that with one pair, seeing what I can do with the box and re-populating it, maybe a big woofer in a sealed cabinet, maybe stick with the active-passive design, maybe go tuned port, ... but then I keep coming back to the realization that I should just design a cabinet around the woofer I want and add a big Heil to it, leave these alone. I would be very disappointed to tear these apart thinking I can do better and fail, I really like them as-is. Sometimes being a tinkerer can make a mess of things.
They really are very good, it takes a speaker well above their current $1,000-$1,500 (guessing here) value to do better, I’ve had these for a long time and many more **valuable** and expensive speakers have come and gone. They’re very musical, reasonably flat, reach low, have that ‘floating in air” sound from the Heils, ... I just can’t let them go. You know when there’s just something so right about the sound but you can’t really point to any one thing? Yes the stock crossover point needs some massaging (although my crossover caps are original so that might be part of it, ya think?) but pretty impressive by any measure IMO.
jcidave
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="SaturationPt, post: 142329
The big ESSs certainly seem like a great sandbox, leave only the Heil and cabinet and you can do a lot of experimenting. I had been thinking for a while about doing just that with one pair, seeing what I can do with the box and re-populating it, maybe a big woofer in a sealed cabinet, maybe stick with the active-passive design, maybe go tuned port, ... but then I keep coming back to the realization that I should just design a cabinet around the woofer I want and add a big Heil to it, leave these alone. I would be very disappointed to tear these apart thinking I can do better and fail, I really like them as-is. Sometimes being a tinkerer can make a mess of things.
My small level of experimentation was to replace the passive radiator with an active woofer in my second pair of Monitors. Wired the 2 - 4ohm woofers in series and cut a pair of small ports in the front baffel board. There is no engineering here. Just what I thought would fit. I should probably cut out the center and combine the 2 round holes into a slot. Also don't know how the xover point has been changed. I have not yet had this pair really cranked, so I don't know their potential. They play along with the rest of the collection. I think the best bass comes from my pair of AMT1A Monitors, with the paper cone woofer.
The big ESSs certainly seem like a great sandbox, leave only the Heil and cabinet and you can do a lot of experimenting. I had been thinking for a while about doing just that with one pair, seeing what I can do with the box and re-populating it, maybe a big woofer in a sealed cabinet, maybe stick with the active-passive design, maybe go tuned port, ... but then I keep coming back to the realization that I should just design a cabinet around the woofer I want and add a big Heil to it, leave these alone. I would be very disappointed to tear these apart thinking I can do better and fail, I really like them as-is. Sometimes being a tinkerer can make a mess of things.
My small level of experimentation was to replace the passive radiator with an active woofer in my second pair of Monitors. Wired the 2 - 4ohm woofers in series and cut a pair of small ports in the front baffel board. There is no engineering here. Just what I thought would fit. I should probably cut out the center and combine the 2 round holes into a slot. Also don't know how the xover point has been changed. I have not yet had this pair really cranked, so I don't know their potential. They play along with the rest of the collection. I think the best bass comes from my pair of AMT1A Monitors, with the paper cone woofer.
The new woofer from ESS is pulp cone again, Ricky has told me (and others) that it is a drop-in replacement / upgrade for the 12” active/passive models. Still not sure whether the mass of the passive would need to be changed and whether the cabinet is large enough to play below 30Hz.
I see you’re running the silver Heils so that seems like it’d be v1 or v2, I think that the only thing that changed is the color of the plates though.
I see you’re running the silver Heils so that seems like it’d be v1 or v2, I think that the only thing that changed is the color of the plates though.
The black Heils have a wider opening as I recall.
I agree in part on 3 ways.
I had the opportunity to listen to a 2-way Monitor along side my modded 3's.
They had a cone passive-Bextrine.
There definitely is a loss of detail in the midbass and lower midrange with the Monitors.
Classic case: Listening to Classic Rewind right now- Journey-Stone In Love-you can hear the pluck/slight rubbing of the semi funky bass guitar. With a stock set of monitors that detail would be absent-not in a bad way-because it would still sound fabulous. Just a omission glossed over-so to speak.
While not a fair comparison on the bass-being modded and sealed on my 3's-they both have more then enough bass for most any sized listening room I would imagine.
They load the room differently-and sealed-with 2x powerful 10" woofers- is much more responsive-little details are lost.
The Monitors buzzed a bit-needs some cab work-no biggie.
Having said all that-I could easily live with the Monitors-and frankly never know what I was missing-or really care.
Given the work it took to get the bass on par to the Monitors.
They still sound very full and detailed-and the lack of the aforementioned midbass/lower midrange detail is not glaring my any means.
I wish I would have run a sweep to see how low they would go
I like the idea of running 2x active 12's.
I agree-the paper cone is they way to go.
I would prefer a cloth or foam surround-if you have the right paper mixture in the cone-the surround should be part of the damping scheme.
Transient response is key with the Heils.-just let those woofers rip!
As far as port tuning-I would recommend calculating the proper tuning before you cut too much away.
Just a educated guess-they are too small to be effective with 2x12" woofers-and probably would be noisy at high volumes.
With 2x12 woofers you would need at least 2x3" ports-more likely 4"
On the rear-which opens up another can of worms.
That's why I ditched the ST255-8's with their large rear ports.
Luckily hockey pucks filled the rear holes perfectly!! And gives some added damping as well!
Or just run them sealed.
Even if the box is too small-you can adjust the damping-with the aid of a simple damping tester-and get them to sound good.
I certainly get the advantages of DSPing externally.
Too much equipment for one thing-I prefer a simple system these day.
I love the big wide warm and detailed sound of my Van Alstine 10RB preamp driving a H/K PA2400.
Not interested in changing that.
The Evo Oils in this set of AMT3's dialed in the Heils to near perfection.
The Janzten/Evo Oil mix in my second set will be interesting-apparently more of a good thing!!.
Drive this with a Proton AP100-and H/K Sig 1.5.
If I ever get it set up-who knows...
\I'm pretty happy with this living room system.
And depending on how the second set sounds-maybe give one set of 3's away-or sell them-and sell of the Proton and Sig 1.5 and the players etc-Reel Deck. And the extra turntables-I'm not using anyway.
Another sleeper IMHO is the AMT5. 2 way with a sealed 12" woofer-power ring Heil.
I was going to drop in a 1240SF-equivilent 12" to the 1040sf-and redo the crossover.
But these things sound great as is. They need a bit of a boost from the Technics SA-600 I use for the T.V system-but they really sound very good.
Going to update the grill cloth to JBL dark navy blue-and still might update the walnut vinyl cabs to cherry contact paper-will see.
Probably end up putting those 1240SF on Barter Town-they would be a good ESS12" upgrade-despite being round-a simple trim ring and things would look fine.
9mm xmax-these are made to play loud and clear.
I agree in part on 3 ways.
I had the opportunity to listen to a 2-way Monitor along side my modded 3's.
They had a cone passive-Bextrine.
There definitely is a loss of detail in the midbass and lower midrange with the Monitors.
Classic case: Listening to Classic Rewind right now- Journey-Stone In Love-you can hear the pluck/slight rubbing of the semi funky bass guitar. With a stock set of monitors that detail would be absent-not in a bad way-because it would still sound fabulous. Just a omission glossed over-so to speak.
While not a fair comparison on the bass-being modded and sealed on my 3's-they both have more then enough bass for most any sized listening room I would imagine.
They load the room differently-and sealed-with 2x powerful 10" woofers- is much more responsive-little details are lost.
The Monitors buzzed a bit-needs some cab work-no biggie.
Having said all that-I could easily live with the Monitors-and frankly never know what I was missing-or really care.
Given the work it took to get the bass on par to the Monitors.
They still sound very full and detailed-and the lack of the aforementioned midbass/lower midrange detail is not glaring my any means.
I wish I would have run a sweep to see how low they would go
I like the idea of running 2x active 12's.
I agree-the paper cone is they way to go.
I would prefer a cloth or foam surround-if you have the right paper mixture in the cone-the surround should be part of the damping scheme.
Transient response is key with the Heils.-just let those woofers rip!
As far as port tuning-I would recommend calculating the proper tuning before you cut too much away.
Just a educated guess-they are too small to be effective with 2x12" woofers-and probably would be noisy at high volumes.
With 2x12 woofers you would need at least 2x3" ports-more likely 4"
On the rear-which opens up another can of worms.
That's why I ditched the ST255-8's with their large rear ports.
Luckily hockey pucks filled the rear holes perfectly!! And gives some added damping as well!
Or just run them sealed.
Even if the box is too small-you can adjust the damping-with the aid of a simple damping tester-and get them to sound good.
I certainly get the advantages of DSPing externally.
Too much equipment for one thing-I prefer a simple system these day.
I love the big wide warm and detailed sound of my Van Alstine 10RB preamp driving a H/K PA2400.
Not interested in changing that.
The Evo Oils in this set of AMT3's dialed in the Heils to near perfection.
The Janzten/Evo Oil mix in my second set will be interesting-apparently more of a good thing!!.
Drive this with a Proton AP100-and H/K Sig 1.5.
If I ever get it set up-who knows...
\I'm pretty happy with this living room system.
And depending on how the second set sounds-maybe give one set of 3's away-or sell them-and sell of the Proton and Sig 1.5 and the players etc-Reel Deck. And the extra turntables-I'm not using anyway.
Another sleeper IMHO is the AMT5. 2 way with a sealed 12" woofer-power ring Heil.
I was going to drop in a 1240SF-equivilent 12" to the 1040sf-and redo the crossover.
But these things sound great as is. They need a bit of a boost from the Technics SA-600 I use for the T.V system-but they really sound very good.
Going to update the grill cloth to JBL dark navy blue-and still might update the walnut vinyl cabs to cherry contact paper-will see.
Probably end up putting those 1240SF on Barter Town-they would be a good ESS12" upgrade-despite being round-a simple trim ring and things would look fine.
9mm xmax-these are made to play loud and clear.
Last edited:
jcidave
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Your point is well taken about whether the new woofers are really a drop in replacement match to existing cabinets and old passives.
This was the condition of the woofer surround on this pair when I got them. The previous owner was using them and oblivious to this condition.
Back to talk of AMT1s. This is the new ESS cast frame woofer in 10 inch size I just flush mounted in my second pair of beat up AMT 1 cabinets.
