The V15 RS. Is it really a V15 or just a rebadged M97xE?

[catman]

G'day all, just on the general subject of the Shure V15 series, I've long had in my cartridge collection (thanks to Balifly), a 'V15RS'.

I've never really been sure about this one, as I've read so much contradictory information on this 'V15RS'. Is it really a true version or variant of the later Shure V15 series, or is it just a rebadged M97xE? :scratch2:

I wonder about this as the standard M97xE stylus fits it perfectly and it sounds exactly like an M97xE. So what's the real truth? Does anybody have any definitive infomation on this 'V15RS'? :scratch2: Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[mythless]

IIRC that was a Shure cartridge rebadged for Radio Shack, but I don't know which one...I would assume it's the V15 lol

 

[hakaplan]

First, it couldn't be a rebadged M97xE because the V15RS predates it by several years. But many have speculated that it was an M body. When Shure was trying to unload their VN5MR inventory (painful as it is to believe) they began recommending them for the V15RS, even though the shaft was too thin. Apparently the plastic bits held it in satisfactorily and it sounded fine. That's hardly conclusive, but it points to the probability that it really is a V15. I'd be curious to know how a VN5xMR or SAS sounds in a V15RS.

 

[dlaloum]

I'd lay odds that the V15VxMR was a rebadged V15RS.....

The RS came first and was a slightly more economically built V15....

Which is an apt description for the V15Vx

I reckon that a SAS VN5xMR would do wonderfully in that cartridge!!

 

[Balifly]

First, it couldn't be a rebadged M97xE because the V15RS predates it by several years. But many have speculated that it was an M body. When Shure was trying to unload their VN5MR inventory (painful as it is to believe) they began recommending them for the V15RS, even though the shaft was too thin. Apparently the plastic bits held it in satisfactorily and it sounded fine. That's hardly conclusive, but it points to the probability that it really is a V15. I'd be curious to know how a VN5xMR or SAS sounds in a V15RS.

The Shure V15RS that is on my Technics SL-1700 has the SAS stylus on it.

I followed your recommendation and got the VN5xMR SAS replacement from JICO last year.
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=76&products_id=1524

It sounds great along with the Luxman L-430 integrated amp and Yamaha NS 690 MKI speakers.

LPgear has a different listing for the V15 RS replacement, the N97HE.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHN097HESAS.html

I have the N 97HE SAS as well, but on a Shure RXT-4 ( M 97HE clone) cartridge.

 

[dlaloum]

The Shure V15RS that is on my Technics SL-1700 has the SAS stylus on it.

I followed your recommendation and got the VN5xMR SAS replacement from JICO last year.
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=76&products_id=1524

It sounds great along with the Luxman L-430 integrated amp and Yamaha NS 690 MKI speakers.

LPgear has a different listing for the V15 RS replacement, the N97HE.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHN097HESAS.html

I have the N 97HE SAS as well, but on a Shure RXT-4 ( M 97HE clone) cartridge.

Ahah at last - someone who has both the SAS N97HE and the SAS VN5xMR...

Have you swapped them around and compared them within the same body?

ie: what is the VN5xMR like in the RXT4 and vice versa the N97xE in the V15RS?

You have the priviledge of having there two very very similar styli, where the difference may be only in the magnet positioning, or it may be only in the mechanical resonance tuning.... but the cantilevers and needles are the same...
So here is an opportunity to learn something more about these cartridges and about these styli...

bye for now

David

 

[Balifly]

Ahah at last - someone who has both the SAS N97HE and the SAS VN5xMR...

Have you swapped them around and compared them within the same body?

ie: what is the VN5xMR like in the RXT4 and vice versa the N97xE in the V15RS?

You have the priviledge of having there two very very similar styli, where the difference may be only in the magnet positioning, or it may be only in the mechanical resonance tuning.... but the cantilevers and needles are the same...
So here is an opportunity to learn something more about these cartridges and about these styli...

bye for now

David

Yes, only for a brief period of time.

Since my interest is in listening to music, I was more interested in which combination sounds the best to me.

There are very minor differences mostly in the very low and the very high range.

The VN5xMR SAS in the Shure RXT-4 cartridge seems to make it sound a bit shaky .

The high is not as pleasant as with the proper stylus the N 97HE SAS would sound ( smoother ).

With the N 97HE SAS in the Shure V15 RS cartridge, the sound would not be as good in all levels, A- versus A+.

When each cartridge is pair up with their proper stylus or as recommended by Howard, A versus A+.

Shure RXT-4 with N 97HE SAS = A

Shure V15 RS with VN5xMR = A+

Interesting part of this comparison is that both cartridges are the much maligned Rat Shack version of Shure products.

 

[dlaloum]

The first obvious comment is that this appears to confirm that a V15RS is indeed a V15VxMR... or very very similar

What cartridge loadings did/do you run them at?

thanks

David

 

[Balifly]

The first obvious comment is that this appears to confirm that a V15RS is indeed a V15VxMR... or very very similar

What cartridge loadings did/do you run them at?

thanks

David

What ever the Luxman L-430 integrated amp has it set at, no clue!

 

[NoTransistors]

Yes, we have been here and done this before.

I am fond of neither the V15RS or the M97xE, as both have passed by these ears. The RS seems to be nothing more than a cheap cartridge with an impressive-looking stylus. Listening certainly proves this. Pull the capsule from the enclosure, and one finds cheap, sheet-metal-like pole pieces. From the V15III [or perhaps the V15II Improved] foward, all V15 had laminated pole pieces. This design carried over to other better cartridges, such as the Shure ML140HE, but not to the RS, nor the 97.
RatShack is not known for selling great stuff, just cheapened stuff.

 

[dlaloum]

So have you taken the capsule from the enclosure of a V15V or Vx?

 

[kconnor]

V15RS and V15xMR bodies are functionally identical, they are the same. A while ago I put those and a M97-HE on a HP 4284A LCR bridge and measured inductance from 50Hz to 20kHz.
The actual inductance in millihenries.

_________ M97-HE________V15RS____VI5xMR
50 Hz____ 824.6 ________479.5_____475.6
500 Hz____800.1 ________459.0_____454.7
1.0 kHz___773.2 ________429.9_____427.8
2.5 kHz___718.8 ________385.4_____385.3
5.0 kHz___663.2 ________350.3_____349.6
10 kHz___ 609.0 ________307.3_____306.9
15 khz____594.0 ________282.9_____283.4
20 kHz____597.7 ________269.2_____269.5

If there were any difference in the core structure there would be a substantial difference in the inductance between the two as frequency increases. The DC resistance of the coils of both cartridges are also comparable. Measurements prove that they are the same. To claim they are not is purely conjecture.

 

[NoTransistors]

I take everything apart.

And Mr. Connor, your fancy meters do not tell the whole story.
Laminated pole pieces are what separate the boys from the men.

 

[kconnor]

The guts of both cartridges are encapsulated in the same black (and hard) plastic you see from the rear of the cartridge. It is impossible to see the coils let alone dig them out without destroying them. I know, I tried it.
If measurements don't tell the story then why would Shure even publish that kind of data. Honestly, if our magnetics engineer thought like that he'd be out of a job.

 

[hakaplan]

Yes, we have been here and done this before.

I am fond of neither the V15RS or the M97xE, as both have passed by these ears. The RS seems to be nothing more than a cheap cartridge with an impressive-looking stylus. Listening certainly proves this. Pull the capsule from the enclosure, and one finds cheap, sheet-metal-like pole pieces. From the V15III [or perhaps the V15II Improved] foward, all V15 had laminated pole pieces. This design carried over to other better cartridges, such as the Shure ML140HE, but not to the RS, nor the 97.
RatShack is not known for selling great stuff, just cheapened stuff.

It stands to reason that when Shure cheapened the M97xE, they followed suit on the V15VxMR. Seems that's what the "x" indicates. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the V15Vx bodies were the same as the V15RS. The V15VMR had the narrow shank. Why then switch to the large shank for the V15VxMR?---Unless it was the same as the V15RS which had the large shank. Sounds logical.

 

[catman]

Just on Shure cartridges......

G'day all, something interesting I've noticed about the Shure cartridges over the years related to aspects of the coil assembly inductance/ coil DC resistance.

The other day I noted that the coil resistance of the excellent M91ED is only 630 ohms whereas the V15III is about 1350 ohms and both are quite high coil inductance, so what is the reason for marked difference in coil resistance. The later Shures all had high DC coil resistance measurements.

I have theorised about this often but never really found a definitive reason. Perhaps just an 'economy' measure or a good technical reason. To me, I always associate DC resistance with 'loss'. Any comments? :scratch2: Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Shure V 15 RS is really closer to the old M 97 HE, a cheaper almost V 15 Type IV.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't think so.

The lower inductance combined with the suggested lower capacitance provides a much smaller LCR resonance, at a higher frequency.
This also means that using a M series type cantilever with a resonance between 10-15kHz will result in a very peaky response - won't sound right at all...

With that type of an electrical response you need to use a more sophisticated cantilever, with the resonance shifted to 20kHz or higher - otherwise you won't get close to a flat frequency response.

The result of that is a more linear phase response too...

The RS & Vx use the same method - and due to having an inductance that is more than 100mH higher than the original V15V - they generate a small LCR resonance in the HF range - helping compensate for the additional losses caused by using a less sophisticated magnetic core construction.

The V15V has its LCR resonance at 15k, the V15Vx/RS have it at 10kHz the M97 at around 8kHz

As you go down the range from high end to lower end (V, Vx/RS, M) the resonance and its associated phase anomalies move gradually into the more audible and noticeable frequencies....

As an aside there are M series cartridges with slightly lower inductance - my 1000e is an M series family member with the inductance at 520mH.

But in a complete cartridge design, the inductance, cartridge load and cantilever design need to come together for a flat F/R.... and there are some constraints from a manufacturers perspective (47k load...).

From our perspective nowadays, we can play with all sorts of styli and balance it all out by varying the load - but we have to set up a phono stage capable of variable R and C - which is relatively uncommon.

bye for now

David

 

[catman]

Some measurements.

G'day all, well I got out my digital multimeter this afternoon and did some coil resistance measurements on this V15RS and one of my M97xE's. Interesting results.

The V15RS measured around 950 ohms, nominally the same as the Shure V15V and the M97xE measured about 1500 ohms. So at least as far as the coil winding resistance goes the V15RS seems to be a variant of the Shure V15V. :scratch2: Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[dlaloum]

My V15's:

V15V 324mH / 804ohm
V15VP 315mH / 851ohm

Both using my Jaycar digital multimeter...

I don't have a Vx or RS to test... although I can provide data on several of the other M series carts:

Cart mH / Ohm
1000e 521 / 1353
DT25p 783 / 1548
MT105p 693/ 1590
M44 737 / 612
M70B 682 / 602
M72EJ 740/649
Me75p 557/1336
Me75p 708/1490

Although there have been comments about pole pieces / magnets being differently positioned on V15's as oppose to M's - I still wonder whether that is real or merely Marketing FUD.

Bye for now

David