Thinking about MC cartridges

[cafe latte]

When I first saw a, Rega MC I thought it was a great design, but when I got one to try, I could not get decent separation and I feel decent separation is important in a cartridge.
Reinventing the wheel is not always a good idea as often things are done for a good tried and tested reason. Often things off the wall different like Grado for example can sound great and yield amazing results like crazy good separation, but not often a totally new approach stands higher than the rest.
Chris

 

[Pio1980]

I assure you the lead wires in Rega are secured into place. The glue, grease if you want, is s semi setting compound and very sticky that if just pulled on will snap the lead wires. There is a way to do it and coils are always realigned regardless of the hurdles by anyone retipping worth his or her salt. My point is it is impossible for the coils to be in the position they are and have moved there in the accident especially when the cantilever is just bent with a kink and to correct the coils the diamond would no longer point down, I have seen this which indicates that the coils were not correct from the factory. I am sure this is not every case but I assure you I have seen it. Further unlike on thr Rega MM it is quite difficult to rotate the cantilever in the suspension indicating in the case of MC at least they are glued to the cantilever further making rotation difficult in an accident.
I like in some ways the design, but I do feel thr lack of a tie wire is allowing too much stylus movement both back and forth and rotationally. I feel this is why thr separation is not so great, I can't think of any other reason.
I feel you are a bit sore about thr MM discussion. The frequency plot is one reason i dont like them, the other is i have seen inside as shiwn and it is not good.
Re Grado tell me what mistake I have made re the grado stylus? I don't know everything, I lean more about our hobby every day, but I have only found 3 pieces on a Grado cantilever when dismantling it not the advertised 4. I would be very interested to know what the 4th piece is. Tell me please what else I have misunderstood?
I have no battle with you or anyone else this is just hifi and it is supposed to be fun.
Chris

I assure you the lead wires in Rega are secured into place. The glue, grease if you want, is s semi setting compound and very sticky that if just pulled on will snap the lead wires. There is a way to do it and coils are always realigned regardless of the hurdles by anyone retipping worth his or her salt. My point is it is impossible for the coils to be in the position they are and have moved there in the accident especially when the cantilever is just bent with a kink and to correct the coils the diamond would no longer point down, I have seen this which indicates that the coils were not correct from the factory. I am sure this is not every case but I assure you I have seen it. Further unlike on thr Rega MM it is quite difficult to rotate the cantilever in the suspension indicating in the case of MC at least they are glued to the cantilever further making rotation difficult in an accident.
I like in some ways the design, but I do feel thr lack of a tie wire is allowing too much stylus movement both back and forth and rotationally. I feel this is why thr separation is not so great, I can't think of any other reason.
I feel you are a bit sore about thr MM discussion. The frequency plot is one reason i dont like them, the other is i have seen inside as shiwn and it is not good.
Re Grado tell me what mistake I have made re the grado stylus? I don't know everything, I lean more about our hobby every day, but I have only found 3 pieces on a Grado cantilever when dismantling it not the advertised 4. I would be very interested to know what the 4th piece is. Tell me please what else I have misunderstood?
I have no battle with you or anyone else this is just hifi and it is supposed to be fun.
Chris

"Free pivot" MM/MI don't use a tie wire, ie, ADC, Ortofon, others. I asked a former ADC engineer about that in an ADC Astrion thread.

 

[cafe latte]

"Free pivot" MM/MI don't use a tie wire, ie, ADC, Ortofon, others. I asked a former ADC engineer about that in an ADC Astrion thread.

And it can work, and I wonder if it is how the suspension is implemented. Maybe the large surface in the Rega is causing the problem maybe shunting back and forth and rolling I wonder..
I originally though a tie wire would resist things so not good, but then I realised it would give an element of control that can be disirable.
Chris

 

[Mister Pig]

I have used a few retippers over the years, Soundsmith, Andy Kim, VAS, and Expert Stylus. Looked hard at a few others, but these are the ones I have used so far.

I had two cartridges that were involved in unfortunate incidents due to a particular type of tone arm. Ultimately those issues are on me, but I will say that magnetic seating tonearms is not as good an idea as they sound.

Here is a link to the story.

Allclear Audio and Cartridge Work | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

What I will say is that Chris knows his way around a cartridge, and is very contentious about his work, and is direct with what he sees. My experiences are positive enough that I am sending him my OEM MC2000 to fit a new diamond rather than Expert Stylus. For me the experiences were positive enough that I would trust him with my better cartridges. The MC2000 is one of my favorites and in my top 3 of cartridges.

If you want to debate the type of work Chris does take it to the Allclear thread, that is a good place for it.

 

[hjames]

Bunch of personal attacks, name calling and similar, distracting from the actual discussion -
just STOP before we ban a couple of folks all in one swoop!

 

[FabRik8r]

I can attest to Rega’s lower end MC’s.
Amazing detail and full range capabilities. The higher end ability shows itself In soundstage depth and height. Yes I know I am paying a premium for their brand, but the three point mounting system and set/forget architecture of their lineup appeals to me.
When compared to EAT/Mofi and other competitors in this price range, I personally have been very impressed with my purchase.
But I know there will always be haters…

I'm glad you mentioned the 3-point mounting system. Who does that? Just Rega, as far as I know. Most people also don't know they make their carts in-house. They don't rebrand. If you look at their product line, you can see they have been working (harder) more recently to up the level of quality with the focus on their MC cartridges. Their phono stages get great reviews, and for my money, I'd rather stay in the Rega ecosystem with a MC cart matched for the Rega tonearm AND phono stage. So no need to go down the rabbit trail. In my mind, it's the next level up from what Beogram did by creating a proprietary phono cartridge + tonearm system. I have a RX2 that I plan to keep long term. Why? Well, it sounds pretty good. It is also setup perfectly. There isn't anything to adjust outside of VTF and arm balance which is child's play. It gives me an option so that if I ever feel one of my turntables is not tracking an old piece of vinyl as it should, I can put on there to reference basic attributes. Also, it's the only automatic table I have. If my hands get shaky one day, I'll have a nice looking turntable to enjoy vinyl.

 

[desertrat748]

I really dont mean any offense at all, but I have worked on these and they really are naff.
Chris

I’m also not trying to offend those that are on ignore so I will say it about myself. There is the “ignore” feature that I would hope people would use on me if they disagreed so much with my opinions. I noticed posted advice that was 100% correct, except it was directed at you instead of themselves; “but you do have a tendency to overstate your points and then end up in the woods of untenable extreme opinions and exaggerations. If you showed a little more restraint and stuck to somewhere within the confines of reality, you’d come off a lot more convincing and less, well, blinded by your own opinions.”

That was really harsh and uncalled for even if there’s a personal issue imo. I think a mod should just delete it. I won’t be able to see any responses to that quote because of the ignore feature in case some are looking for a response. I hope people will choose to use ignore instead of putting down others.

The good from this is I do appreciate the graphs and explanations though.

That +3dB dip from ~ 4k to 10k would drive me crazy and how hard would it be to correct it for your room, speakers, preamp load etc. Flat is flat.

Thanks for posting the graphs and evidence. We might disagree on the sound quality of a certain cart or stylus, but I don’t think you have ever posted any hyperbole.

 

[desertrat748]

I've had a few MCs (High output Sumiko Evo III, Dynavector 10x5, low output Demon 103D, Audio Technica OC-9 II).
I'm now quite happy with my moving magnet AT150 mlx and am probably done with moving coils for good.

However, in this hobby you kind of have to try stuff to figure out whether it's for you or not.

Curious about your opinion about your Dynavector 10x5. How did it compare with others?

 

[desertrat748]

don't forget still need a SUT device in that "couple of bills" budget even with the Denon.
The Denon does sound good for the money, but am sorry not in same league as some higher MC models.

And the SUT type also makes a huge difference in overall performance. It’s a bit of an exercise to get everything to play nicely together.

 

[cafe latte]

I’m also not trying to offend those that are on ignore so I will say it about myself. There is the “ignore” feature that I would hope people would use on me if they disagreed so much with my opinions. I noticed posted advice that was 100% correct, except it was directed at you instead of themselves; “but you do have a tendency to overstate your points and then end up in the woods of untenable extreme opinions and exaggerations. If you showed a little more restraint and stuck to somewhere within the confines of reality, you’d come off a lot more convincing and less, well, blinded by your own opinions.”

That was really harsh and uncalled for even if there’s a personal issue imo. Much more applicable to author it seems than directed to you. I had a hard time understanding the thread until I realized that I was using the ignore function. I won’t be able to see any responses to that quote because of the ignore feature. I hope people will choose to use it instead of putting down others.

You shouldn’t waste time defending something that you clearly have an excellent understanding about. I do appreciate the graphs and explanations though.

That +3dB dip from ~ 4k to 10k would drive me crazy and how hard would it be to correct it for your room, speakers, preamp load etc. Flat is flat.

Thanks for posting the graphs and evidence. We might disagree on the sound quality of a certain cart or stylus, but I don’t think you have ever posted any hyperbole.

I should have ignored him you are correct.
There are very few carts I don't like, and I have heard most of them, but the Rega MM due to the dip I just can't find a positive.
As I said the MC's they make are much better, but they have limitations I discussed. I do wonder if there odd design could be made to work really well if the suspension was implemented differently?
I would love to see something like the Decca being made by someone again( They are now discontinued).
All the best
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

maybe so, but so have I.
spent the last 3 years going through phono stages, LOMC carts and MM carts.
included in those MC carts were the stock Denon, the ZU modified Denon.

Done right the Denon should sound great and correctly compliance matched, and remember the ZU uses the old cantilever and conical diamond. I feel the denon is a big step up with a decent tip and boron.
Also thr big thing with Denon is correct effective mass and correct loading. What arm do you have?
Chris

 

[desertrat748]

I should have ignored him you are correct.
There are very few carts I don't like, and I have heard most of them, but the Rega MM due to the dip I just can't find a positive.
As I said the MC's they make are much better, but they have limitations I discussed. I do wonder if there odd design could be made to work really well if the suspension was implemented differently?
I would love to see something like the Decca being made by someone again( They are now discontinued).
All the best
Chris

I recall your advice about the Decca and I would have loved to picked up one but unfortunately I didn’t.

Is it possible to retip one of those or is that only for the factory (that’s no longer in business?) I think you said that the Decca was one option for an excellent non-MC cart?

Didn’t know that about the Rega MM. That dip would’ve driven me crazy if I had one. I don’t know anything about the builds but I do know what my ears tell me.

 

[cafe latte]

I recall your advice about the Decca and I would have loved to picked up one but unfortunately I didn’t.

Is it possible to retip one of those or is that only for the factory (that’s no longer in business?) I think you said that the Decca was one option for an excellent non-MC cart?

Didn’t know that about the Rega MM. That dip would’ve driven me crazy if I had one. I don’t know anything about the builds but I do know what my ears tell me.

Decca can be retipped like any cart, but most need tieback adjustment and armature damper doing too which is why most used ones are over priced. I snagged one a while back for 50 bucks in an ebay auction the seller said was broken. Turned out the tip was fine as was the armature damper, it was just a slack tieback massive win.
Chris

 

[desertrat748]

^ I’m jealous

 

[joecoulson]

I’ll also say this, synergy in this hobby is paramount ( at least with most of us) and even though stand alone Rega pieces might not impress all, the synergy between components ( like @FabRik8r said) when all are used (TT, PS, cart and pre) is pretty damn good. At least in my setup.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

I’ll also say this, synergy in this hobby is paramount ( at least with most of us) and even though stand alone Rega pieces might not impress all, the synergy between components ( like @FabRik8r said) when all are used (TT, PS, cart and pre) is pretty damn good. At least in my setup.

Agreed, but even synergy can take you only so far. I have several Grace cartridges along with the arm they were designed for and the synergy of having a cart on the arm it was designed for can't be denied.

That said the Grace cartridges still sound better on the WTL arm/table, of course that could just mean even superior synergy

 

[adnick]

I’d like to try a Decca but will not be buying one at the current market rate @Mister Pig recommended a DL 103M and that may be my next addition to my DL 103 collection.

@Redboy graciously built me an Altec Peerless 4629 SUT so need something to break it in with

Andy

 

[cafe latte]

I’d like to try a Decca but will not be buying one at the current market rate @Mister Pig recommended a DL 103M and that may be my next addition to my DL 103 collection.

@Redboy graciously built me an Altec Peerless 4629 SUT so need something to break it in with

Andy

The Denon 103r retipped and reboddied and suspension addressed if the compliance is an issue can sound stunning.
Chris

 

[adnick]

The Denon 103r retipped and reboddied and suspension addressed if the compliance is an issue can sound stunning.
Chris

Totally agree Chris, already have a 103R done by Joseph

Andy

 

[cafe latte]

I’ll also say this, synergy in this hobby is paramount ( at least with most of us) and even though stand alone Rega pieces might not impress all, the synergy between components ( like @FabRik8r said) when all are used (TT, PS, cart and pre) is pretty damn good. At least in my setup.

Rega MC are not horrible by any means (the MM are), retipped lower model MC rega with boron can be a cheap way to get a higher model too and the ones I had with rotated coils may not be a fair representation, I can only go by what I see myself. Maybe I am being unfair, butI am judging the Rega performance after hearing hundreds of MC carts from the best of the best to 1k stuff. I regularly test carts separation at 30-35dB with crazy linear channel balance and totally equal coils. When I tested Rega and got separation in the low 20's and uneven, they are not going to go in my "wow that was amazing, but they dont exactly sound horrible either, just not a cart that makes me sit up and pay attention " to be fair there are a lot of carts out there that perform less than great also that cost a lot of money too.
Chris