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Thorens TD-124 Project Turntable

Nations is still there..... I'll pretty close to it........

jancumps said:
By the way, you can hear the difference between mechanical and electrical buzzing.

If you hear a grumble (imagine that you hear an earthquake 3 kilometres below the surface where you live - don't ask why I know how that sounds :) ) ; it's mechanical.
That kind of noise is mostly also slightly dynamic - it has a rhythm.
If you hear a constant hummmm, it's electrical. this noise typically is constant, without any modulation.
Click to expand...

I hear a slight modulating hum... a rhythm is there .... sounding separate from the "rumble" created by the idler wheel and associated parts which is fairly normal and not a serious problem.

I'm going to try this fix I read about, later this afternoon. I have my doubts it will work.... I'm kind'a thinking is was a sarcastic remark. I don't want to say what it is until I try it.
 
Quote from diyAudio forum
" Default TD124low humming
The low humming between tracks or silent passage can be eliminated by simply removing the mushrooms. But also please check that the main spindle bearing is well lubricated. I've had this problem for a long while, until I chanced upon someone who'd removed the mushrooms to kill the hum. "

I didn't expect this to work and it doesn't. Just creates other issues.

Maybe it's just not that bad of a noise, and I just have to deal with it. If I can get better motor mount grommets/bushings, I get them and install. Some suggest the controversial "Geltec bushings". What's the feeling on this forum about them?
 
Are you using the same cartridge when you changed arms? Just checking to make sure tha you ruled out that is not the cartridge making the hum.
 
AudioJag said:
Quote from diyAudio forum
" Default TD124low humming
The low humming between tracks or silent passage can be eliminated by simply removing the mushrooms. But also please check that the main spindle bearing is well lubricated. I've had this problem for a long while, until I chanced upon someone who'd removed the mushrooms to kill the hum. "

I didn't expect this to work and it doesn't. Just creates other issues.

Maybe it's just not that bad of a noise, and I just have to deal with it. If I can get better motor mount grommets/bushings, I get them and install. Some suggest the controversial "Geltec bushings". What's the feeling on this forum about them?
Click to expand...

You shouldn't have hum or rumble with a properly sorted out TD 124. Mine doesn't, and it was a sorely neglected table that was rescued from a friends garage. But i sent my motor into Jim Campbell for a rebuild to make sure it was up to spec. I replaced motor mounts and mushrooms to be sure they were functioning properly. I also checked out the idler wheel to make sure it was in spec. I had the bearing rebuilt by AK's Marc Morin, and the end cap and thrust plate showed significant signs of wear and abuse. So with an inspec motor, rebuilt bearing, good idler wheel, and new isolation grommets I have a quiet turntable.

With the aluminum upper platter in place I have no problems with either humming, or using a moving coil cartridge with my MK I TD 124. So once you have this table sorted out, you should have a quiet one also.

I guess I would start by setting the cartridge on the record without the table spinning to see if you have hum generated by an interaction of the arm or cartridge with the main platter. Then i would slip the belt, turn the unit on, and see if its related to the motor being powered up. Finally I would run the table normally and see if it is related to the drive system, such as the bearing or idler pulley.

The 124 is a great table, and well worth restoring. Now that you have eliminated the arm as the culrpit, it should be easier to find the problem.

The only other thing to look at might be the strobe assembly. Any chance the cartridge is picking anything from the strobe light? Is that piece stock, or has it ever been changed?

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Mister Pig said:
You shouldn't have hum or rumble with a properly sorted out TD 124. Mine doesn't, and it was a sorely neglected table that was rescued from a friends garage. But i sent my motor into Jim Campbell for a rebuild to make sure it was up to spec. I replaced motor mounts and mushrooms to be sure they were functioning properly. I also checked out the idler wheel to make sure it was in spec. I had the bearing rebuilt by AK's Marc Morin, and the end cap and thrust plate showed significant signs of wear and abuse. So with an inspec motor, rebuilt bearing, good idler wheel, and new isolation grommets I have a quiet turntable.

With the aluminum upper platter in place I have no problems with either humming, or using a moving coil cartridge with my MK I TD 124. So once you have this table sorted out, you should have a quiet one also.
Click to expand...

Mine is totally noise-free as well.
 
Mister Pig and bob06...... Most of these questions have been dealt with in previous posts. I can't afford to have the motor rebuilt, I can afford to try replacing the motor mounts that I put in last year with a different set. The platter is aluminum. Motor turned off while arm on record.... no hum. (The platter turns for almost a minute after turning it off.) I'm starting to think that "quiet" might be relative. The TD-160 is quiet. The TD124 is less so. I have not replaced the original strobe assembly, and I can't see how it would interfere. The motor mounts will, and the modulating hum does sound like a motor.

What do you both think about the following motor mounts offered by AudioSilente:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251444406690
http://stores.ebay.com/AUDIOSILENTE?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
 
Ditto what the Pigster just said. You should rebuild the motor just because it is so old. I've invested in all Jim Campbell's parts and though expensive, they work. The motor mounts and mushrooms are outstanding. In a ply chassis with a record playing, I can rap on the plinth hard with my knuckles and nothing reaches the stylus.

The endcap and bearing well thrust plate are worthy additions too.

Norm at Sertech in San Jose can use Jim's rebuild kit if you don't want to send it to the East Coast, although from Vallejo is a trek.

You are welcome to listen to my 124 if you want to get an idea of how quiet these can be. The only thing I haven't changed is the idler wheel because mine makes no noise.
 
AudioJag said:
Mister Pig and bob06...... Most of these questions have been dealt with in previous posts. I can't afford to have the motor rebuilt, I can afford to try replacing the motor mounts that I put in last year with a different set. The platter is aluminum. Motor turned off while arm on record.... no hum. (The platter turns for almost a minute after turning it off.) I'm starting to think that "quiet" might be relative. The TD-160 is quiet. The TD124 is less so. I have not replaced the original strobe assembly, and I can't see how it would interfere. The motor mounts will, and the modulating hum does sound like a motor.

What do you both think about the following motor mounts offered by AudioSilente:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251444406690
http://stores.ebay.com/AUDIOSILENTE?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
Click to expand...

Have you removed the belt and checked to make sure it is indeed a mechanical issue with the motor that is causing the noise? If it is motor related then it should still appear with the cartridge just resting on the vinyl and the motor turning. And then the question becomes is it possible to deal with the issue with the motor mounts.

Those grommets look to be the same as the ones sold by Jim Campbell, and I put those on my table. I did not A/B them against the old stock ones, as I was just looking to do a total restoration of the table. Are they better than rubber alternatives, especially at twice the price? That I really do not know. My gut feeling is that the problem is not going to be solved by a more expensive grommet, especially since you replaced these grommets in the last year. Can you tell us where you got these, and how it was determined they were appropriate for this application?

I guess one other thing to do is determine how quiet is the motor? Do you get a good deal of vibration from it? Have you oiled the motor recently?

As far as being "relatively quiet", all I can say is that i own another belt drive table that sold for $3.3K. The TD 124 has every bit as low a noise floor as my other table. So it is very quiet in my book.

Best of luck with sorting this all out, I am sure it is going to be a fairly staright forward fix once you identify the root cause.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Mister Pig said:
Have you removed the belt and checked to make sure it is indeed a mechanical issue with the motor that is causing the noise? If it is motor related then it should still appear with the cartridge just resting on the vinyl and the motor turning. And then the question becomes is it possible to deal with the issue with the motor mounts.

Those grommets look to be the same as the ones sold by Jim Campbell, and I put those on my table. I did not A/B them against the old stock ones, as I was just looking to do a total restoration of the table. Are they better than rubber alternatives, especially at twice the price? That I really do not know. My gut feeling is that the problem is not going to be solved by a more expensive grommet, especially since you replaced these grommets in the last year. Can you tell us where you got these, and how it was determined they were appropriate for this application?

I guess one other thing to do is determine how quiet is the motor? Do you get a good deal of vibration from it? Have you oiled the motor recently?

As far as being "relatively quiet", all I can say is that i own another belt drive table that sold for $3.3K. The TD 124 has every bit as low a noise floor as my other table. So it is very quiet in my book.

Best of luck with sorting this all out, I am sure it is going to be a fairly staright forward fix once you identify the root cause.

Regards
Mister Pig
Click to expand...

Mister Pig.... you are using then the Gel type grommets? And I think your first thought is a good idea and I will remove the belt and check it that way.

As I stated previously, I can't afford since being retired and watching expenditure, to have the motor sent out for rebuilt.

I may have purchased the new grommets from this site... not sure as I can't find where I put the info. And the originals were replaced because they had been sitting unused for over 30 years.
http://www.tubeaudioproducts.com/SME/ProductMain.aspx?CatID=71

Motor was oiled when I replaced old parts and I don't get any vibration from the motor.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. I'm sure you can understand my frustration with trying to fix it. Again it is not my everyday table anymore, so it's not imperative to get it right immediately.
 
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Br1ck said:
Ditto what the Pigster just said. You should rebuild the motor just because it is so old. I've invested in all Jim Campbell's parts and though expensive, they work. The motor mounts and mushrooms are outstanding. In a ply chassis with a record playing, I can rap on the plinth hard with my knuckles and nothing reaches the stylus.

The endcap and bearing well thrust plate are worthy additions too.

Norm at Sertech in San Jose can use Jim's rebuild kit if you don't want to send it to the East Coast, although from Vallejo is a trek.

You are welcome to listen to my 124 if you want to get an idea of how quiet these can be. The only thing I haven't changed is the idler wheel because mine makes no noise.
Click to expand...

br1ck..... Thanks for the offer... but as stated in previous post... can't afford to have motor rebuilt, and this TD124 is no longer my main table. I actually much prefer the TD160..... found in reading about it that many people really love the TD160. I get fonder of it the more I use it and have issue with others :-)
 
Nothing wrong with a TD-160. They are a great sounding TT. I have a TD-160 Super with a SME 3009 on it and it sounds great. But don't let that 124 bring you down. In the future if you get some spare funds have the motor done and tune up. The 124 will run circle's around the 160. Good Luck.
 
bob06 said:
Nothing wrong with a TD-160. They are a great sounding TT. I have a TD-160 Super with a SME 3009 on it and it sounds great. But don't let that 124 bring you down. In the future if you get some spare funds have the motor done and tune up. The 124 will run circle's around the 160. Good Luck.
Click to expand...

bob06... This is where I definitely have to disagree.... I don't believe no matter how good the 124 is reconditioned that it will perform any better than the 160, especially when the the tonearm and cartridge are the same, and set up the same on both. You would have to prove that one to me. I think you live too far away :-)

With all due respect, one thing that seems to be used a lot about turntables is that they have a sound. Good turntables should have no sound, or introduce any sound of their own.

I'm probably just getting too old and cranky!!!
 
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Mister Pig...... That link was not correct. That was for SME parts... not sure where I got the grommets.

bob06..... What are your thoughts on the gel type grommets?
 
Gel-type grommets cost me $50... Did they make a difference? I honestly can't say.

You can spend $110 and have Jim rebuild your motor, which makes a SIGNIFICANT improvement in speed stability. I know $$ is tight, but it's worth doing if you intend to keep this table.
 
beatcomber said:
Gel-type grommets cost me $50... Did they make a difference? I honestly can't say.

You can spend $110 and have Jim rebuild your motor, which makes a SIGNIFICANT improvement in speed stability. I know $$ is tight, but it's worth doing if you intend to keep this table.
Click to expand...

Thanks beatcomber..... Maybe the doing the lesser one first would be a start. 'Cause with a rebuild I would probably have to get new ones anyway. So far those who have them have not said for sure one way or the other if they help.

One thing I can do if I get them.... report success or failure. Put that issue to bed :-)
 
I tried them all. The rubber motor mounts, silicone motor mounts and ended up replacing them with a spring setup instead. That's where I heard the most improvement.
 
audiojag,
I've owned several rim drive tables and none of them have been as quiet as a good Belt or Direct drive table. It is no coincidence that manufacturers had to abandon this method (except for tables intended to be mounted in massive consoles) in order to achieve the noise figures required. Also, you'll notice that in the TD125 the motor is mounted to a different plane than the arm and the platter.

I have a td124 MkII. That is mounted solid to a fairly heavy plinth. The motor needs to be cleaned (I have a kit waiting time to do it). This is not a dead quiet turntable nor would I expect it to be even with its "stock" mkII grommet setup (40+ year old gromets) and a freshly cleaned motor.

However improvements can be made. Here is an excelent article to reveiw.

http://www.hanzehifi.nl/merken-bezigheden/thorens-garrard/thorens/td124

Since these measurement were taken in the Netherlands I would only assume doing them in the US would produce 120hz hum instead of 100Hz hum. They did seem to get the hum down to -76db which is actually Direct Drive type figures but remember thats just the noise from the motor and is not measured with the belt and all other mechincals running.

I don't think folks use these tables becuase they are looking for a quiet solution. I find that even though my td124 is not a quiet as my other tables I do prefer to use it. I think there may actually be something to a flywheel spinning, directly coupled to a fairly heavy platter being a superior musically but inferior from a Signal to Noise ratio. Granted it may just be my imagination.




Steve
 
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Those are the springs I use in my 124. They work very well. Better than any rubber or silicone mounts. :thmbsp:
 
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