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Turntable advise

Mockduck said:
I am not quite sure what advice to give, so let me simply explain my recent experience with a Pro-Ject Essential III turntable:

I found once still in its box at a local junk store, and was able to purchase it for $150. At the time I thought that was a fantastic deal, given the typical $300 new price tag for the turntable (although yes, the Essential has been replaced with the Debut Carbon for their entry-level model.)

The box had been opened at the top, but the table was still in its wrapping, and clearly hadn't been opened (no fingerprints or anything.) I took it home to discover the reason why it had been opened: Someone had grabbed the Tonearm Counterweight from it. :( I ordered a replacement 65g counterweight from Music Direct. It took them more than three weeks for it to be delivered, but was eventually delivered, and seems to work fine.

The pluses:

- It is a very nice, clean-looking turntable. Aesthetically it gets nice comments from friends who see it.

- The Ortofon 5e cartridge and stylus sound great. I was previously using a Yamaha P350 with a new Audio Technica AT100e cartridge and stylus, and heard a significant improvement in clarity and overall sound response on the Essential.

- The turntable comes basically set up for you other than having to balance the tonearm and set up the anti-skate.

- The tone arm looks really nice, with a black brushed aluminum finish.

So, that would lead me to say it's a good choice. HOWEVER, there are a couple of significant negatives I've experienced:

- The grounding on the table I received is poor. I have been getting a low-level hum every time the needle touches the record. This isn't particularly distracting when music is being actively played, but is very annoying and audible at the start and end of the record. It's kinda been driving me nuts, so I flipped the table over, unscrewed the plastic boxes containing the wires and such, and have been trying to re-ground the tonearm without success. I also tried re-grounding the power supply, and the overall stereo out cables, without success. At this point I suspect the issue may be reverberation being caused by the power supply's connection to the underside of the turntable, although that conflicts with the evidence of it only happening when the needle touches a record. I also took a ground cable and tried to touch it to the tone arm while it was playing on a spinning end of record, and it did seem to lower the hum. It's got me stumped.

- Looking at the underside of the table and the wires, it's clear they are super-cheap. Tiny thin wires with cheap soldering, and the initial ground is actually punched through a sheet of light cardboard with a metal spray backing on it. :( I can take a picture later, but man, does it look cheap. The overall quality of the wires and connections leads me to think that may be the big culprit in my sound problems. Looks good on the outside, just don't look at its inside, ya know?

- I too like it when the tonearm returns at the end of the record, and this one doesn't. It seems minor until you use it for a while, then you really see the benefit of a returning tone arm.

- The mat that comes with the table is a super-cheap felt mat. They didn't even go for rubber.

- The anti-skate is a small piece of fishing line connected to a small weight. You hook a loop of the fishing line to the back of the tone arm, then bring it across a wire that sticks up towards the back of the unit. It works I guess, but just doesn't look good.

- There is no 33 1/3 to 45 switch. In order to switch to play 45s or visa versa, you have to take off the platter and manually move the belt to a different rung on the motor. It's easy to do, but really?

- Finally, the lever that gently lowers the needle to the record has a sticking issue for me. I'll depress it, but it just won't go down enough to touch the needle to the record until I manually push it down. Following that, it seems to work for a while again, but after I give it a rest and come back the next day, it does it again.

So, final thoughts: It looks nice but seems to be super-cheaply made. If it didn't sound clearly better than my previous table, I'd have swapped back to the Yamaha in a heartbeat. All said and done I spent $180 on it, and kinda wish I hadn't. I suspect the Yamaha with the Ortofon cartridge might be my best solution.

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Be careful....there are those in here who will suggest you're "complaining" about your purchase and that it's "old news"...:rolleyes:

To the OP: Hope you get your decision straightened out, Darren.
 
Darren re the Denons, the DJ151 is as in it's title a DJ table, plan on doing some scratching? The DP-300F might be a little more domesticated but both are Hanpin products and will never meet the build or design quality of the vintage Technics tables built in Japan. In recent years Denon along with Audio Technica, Stanton and host of other companies from Japan and other countries have off shored the mfg of tables to Taiwan and China, the low price, questionable build quality and poor performance is reflected in that decision, it's a race to the bottom. Your not exactly in no mans land being in Conn. and if your willing to travel a few miles you shouldn't have any problem finding one of the many millions of vinrtage Technics tables mfg in excellent condition for not much more than you will pay for one of the new cheaply built imposters.
 
Look at an example and judge for yourself. You will know right away whether a table is good or not. I'll tell you a couple of things that I find unacceptable in any table:
1. Wobble, looseness or slop in any connection or moving part.
2. Small platter size; The edges should be either in perfect alignment or the vinyl just tipping over the edge (ever so slightly).
3. I apologize, but even at 400 dollars, a table should have the pre-requisites, being an anti skate, and a choice of variable pitch control or a quartz locked motor. Absence of anti skate control (unless its a linear tracking table...I'm not familiar with them) is unacceptable.
4. White, Motor, mechanical or rubbing noises of any kind.
5. Absence of damped cuing.
6. The base should be made of either wood veneer or a high quality material.

If the Denon looks like its a winner during your personal inspection then you make the choice whether you should chance it or not. Turntable choice (even during its heyday) involves some risk taking, because even some of the vaulted makers made hiccup models once in awhile. Just stay with the proven makers and make your best informed choice.
 
One more thing; The arm suspension may be covered in plastic, but make sure that the connection itself is made from a durable metal or composite material. Years ago, arm connections were made from gimbaled metal, polished or "jeweled" metal, including the tone-arm. Stay away from the turntable if its more than 60% plastic, including the platter. Plastic platters are unacceptable to me as well, but I will tell you, the BSR changers from the late 70's were almost all plastic, and as crude as they were, they were also some of the most reliable record handling machines I've ever seen. Crude, but extremely durable and reliable. That was from a different era where turntables (even the lowest grades) had to perform. Today's turntables seem to be adequate on visual appeal, but spotty on quality.
 
An interesting thread. Thanks for sharing your quest. I would add another vintage recommendation, the Elac Miracord. Various models. Idler drive, semi automatic or more. Quality German manufacture and a really sweet sound. I'm saying that in comparison with the other quality vintage tables I have by Thorens and Garrard.
 
You're probably better off going to a vintage record store selling vintage tables armed with your phone so you can look up a prospective table than hunting for bargains at Best Buy. I started my vinyl journey in a trading post with a Pioneer table that I returned after it malfunctioned. I picked up a Sony PS-X50 to replace it after reading up on it while I was in the store. The guy even gave me a good discount because the arm won't lift up at the end of the
the record. I believe I took it home for about a hundred dollars.

That was three years ago and though you may not get as many chances as i did to find bargains as everyone seemed to have jumped on the turntable bandwagon, there are still deals to be had out there. Good quality Dual turntables are still quite cheap, and I'm pretty sure a decent one will spank anything new at its price point. In fact, there's a couple of nice Dual and Thorens tables on CL in Eastern CT(don't know where you're from) that you mightbwant to look at.

The thing is, if you're serious about this hobby, I'm pretty sure you won't be satisfied with what you can get at Best Buy at your price point after you've heard what a truly nice system can sound like. Unless you're happy paying for the same piece if real estate twice, I suggest you widen your choices and look at other options available to you (i.e. vintage tables) so you won't get a case of buyer's remorse later on.
 
Well I have to thank you all for the advice I feel like I’m in a college seminar. And I will definitely be visiting a used record/vintage turntable store tomorrow that’s about 5 miles from my house armed with all these good nuggets of knowledge.

Thanks Darren
 
Yes I will definitely do so. I’m going to pass on the Denon cause it’s a 2 hour drive to get it and I’m just not up for that
 
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I recently picked up a pretty JVC/Nivico for my brother in law - at a used record store. Walnut veneer, not cheesey vinyl. Came with a Darling M-22 cartridge - $100 out the door. Not what I consider audiophile grade, but it’s fine for him. ^_^

Good luck in your search!
 
See if there is a Best Buy near you, or try to go on a day that's convenient (if its the Denon that you really want). Do not give up on your goals for a turntable (if its new that you want). But if it is new, then the best advice would be to see it first hand. With a vintage you can take chances online based on the unit's reputation (I took a chance on Garrard DD75 that I bought online because of its reputation, and I am well versed in Garrard turntables), and whether you are buying it from a place where you can get a refund. Its risky, but it can be fun if you do your homework and shop wisely.
 
Well something very unexpected happened last night. I made the plunge and pulled the trigger on a sl1700. It was advertised as all functions totally working. And recently serviced. Cosmetically it’s beautiful with just one small chip at least as far as I can see from the photos. I am very excited. I probably overpaid a little bit you know how that goes. I will post photos later.

Darren
 
Happy very happy for you. Sometimes you may have to spend. I would rather spend on a platter and get a mint example as opposed to find a bargain and get more than you bargained for. Post pics when you can.
 
Your going to buy a better turntable later, so why wait and you’ll be getting all your money back. Evidently it wasn’t built to last...
 
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