Vintage Fried Speakers, Indy

[captouch]

I read the same thread, I'm just trying to determine how close the IMF's sound like to the Fried Model R and determine what within the IMF line would be a lateral move versus an upward move. It's possible that the TLS-50's would be lateral potentially but I have no idea. Columbus isn't that far to get a pair of TLS-50's, if you ever wanted to drive out there I'd be game to ride with you if nothing else was going on. I have read the hierarchy of IMF speakers in other threads (these things have sounded so good that it's resulted in a quasi-obsession with IMF now). The pictures of the ones in Napierville unfortunately have no grill-off photos.

Doesn't seem to be a direct counterpart in the IMF line. If your model R's are 28" high like the shopgoodwill ad says, it's similar to the size of the ALS 40. The TLS 50 and 80 are quite a bit larger (36 and 38.5", respectively) and are 4-ways with supertweeters.

But your racetrack B139 woofer is the same as the TLS 80, RSPM IV, etc. Some elements of some, some of others.

I've never heard the Frieds, but I can say the TLS 50's sound like big speakers - full sound, capable of really deep bass. I have a pair, as well as RSPM's. While big on their own, the TLS 50's are pretty much dwarfed by the RSPM's.

As stated in the other thread, the RSPM's are probably more accurate (less colored) - but at times, I've thought the 50's actually had the stronger bass, but I've never run them side by side in the same room with the same source components/preamps/amps, so I can't say for sure.

But if you like that sound, I'm sure you'll like the IMF's as well. :thmbsp:

 

[mccarty350]

Doesn't seem to be a direct counterpart in the IMF line. If your model R's are 28" high like the shopgoodwill ad says, it's similar to the size of the ALS 40. The TLS 50 and 80 are quite a bit larger (36 and 38.5", respectively) and are 4-ways with supertweeters.

But your racetrack B139 woofer is the same as the TLS 80, RSPM IV, etc. Some elements of some, some of others.

I've never heard the Frieds, but I can say the TLS 50's sound like big speakers - full sound, capable of really deep bass. I have a pair, as well as RSPM's. While big on their own, the TLS 50's are pretty much dwarfed by the RSPM's.

As stated in the other thread, the RSPM's are probably more accurate (less colored) - but at times, I've thought the 50's actually had the stronger bass, but I've never run them side by side in the same room with the same source components/preamps/amps, so I can't say for sure.

But if you like that sound, I'm sure you'll like the IMF's as well. :thmbsp:

Captouch thanks for jumping in, I recognize your name from other IMF threads, you have some VERY nice speakers. The Model R I believe is 66 lbs and is a larger speaker, very heavy. It sounds like a big speaker, tons of bass. Since the Fried uses the 'resistive' line rather than transmission line there is a significant size/weight reduction due to less space being required for the resistive line or at least that's what I have deduced. Looking at the driver complement it seems to be analogous as you have observed to some of the larger IMF speakers although mine is a 3 way design. That's why I'm confused how it compares/sits. I am completely enamored with the color of sound that comes out of these things. I'm not going to say they're neutral without coloration, I would say that the descriptive terms that apply to the mid are 'liquid' 'lush' and 'dynamic'. For the highs I would say on the 'sweet' side if such adjectives are universally understood/applicable. I absolutely LOVE the coloration. I am guessing that the mid is the primary provider of this and that since the IMF's have it that they would sound similar but perhaps with deeper bass, some extended highs from the super tweeter, and maybe better power handling? It's the power handling that I'm concerned about considering the inefficiency of these speakers, you have to 'put the juice' to them and in a larger room perhaps quite a bit of juice to get things to moderate volume. Perhaps more than the R's can handle.

I'm still curious if the R's were the TOTL within the Fried lineup for that timeframe. I can see where Fried cut costs...smaller cab using resistive line rather than legit TL...baffle is plain and unveneered, etc.

John

 

[Nat]

I think that the Frieds were more dynamic than the IMFs, if only because the crossovers were simpler. I also think it's difficult to line Frieds and IMFs up one to one because of the very significant difference in construction/shipping costs (at least in the US).
But I think the Rs were not the top of the Fried line -- they may have been the top fully built model, for a while, but there were more complex TLs that were kits and perhaps available factory built, and there were several sub/sat systems also.
As an ex owner of Qs, Betas, As and IMF TLS 50s and Super Compacts, I think that the Frieds were easier to drive, and therefore tended to sound more open and lively, though this is pretty clearly amp dependent -- I never got the Super Compacts to sound anywhere near as good as they did in Mark Hardy's system (I believe he was running them on SETs). So trying different amps might be as worthwhile as trying different speakers. And it goes without saying that with revealing speakers like these, the whole system matters.

 

[captouch]

Do you know what the MSRP was and the years it sold? Probably would say something about how it was positioned and what it had to compete against.

Based on what you said about weight, fullness, etc, I'd guess TLS 80 as closest equivalent, but that's just a guess. Has the same bass and mid driver I think. So like a 3-way version of the 80 using a different line scheme?

All that matters is that it sounds good, and congrats on getting a screaming deal. :thmbsp:

I got my TLS 50 II's for a good price, but not that good! I liked them so much that it made me look for the RSPM's, so if you're the same, you may end up with another pair of Frieds, TDL's, or IMF's at some point.

I've recapped 4 pairs of speakers, and on 3/4, it made a pretty big difference. So I think it'll be worth the time/effort/$ to see if it further improves your R's.

 

[mccarty350]

I think that the Frieds were more dynamic than the IMFs, if only because the crossovers were simpler. I also think it's difficult to line Frieds and IMFs up one to one because of the very significant difference in construction/shipping costs (at least in the US).
But I think the Rs were not the top of the Fried line -- they may have been the top fully built model, for a while, but there were more complex TLs that were kits and perhaps available factory built, and there were several sub/sat systems also.
As an ex owner of Qs, Betas, As and IMF TLS 50s and Super Compacts, I think that the Frieds were easier to drive, and therefore tended to sound more open and lively, though this is pretty clearly amp dependent -- I never got the Super Compacts to sound anywhere near as good as they did in Mark Hardy's system (I believe he was running them on SETs). So trying different amps might be as worthwhile as trying different speakers. And it goes without saying that with revealing speakers like these, the whole system matters.

That's exactly the information that I was curious about specifically. The Frieds don't seem like an 82db efficient speaker, they actually respond like my 87db speakers, perhaps even slightly more efficient. 8 ohm load, currently driving mine with a 9090DB in my office, VERY dynamic and that's kind of the draw here. These things are lively. I'll say this...they are more dynamic than any of my ADS/Infinity/AR gear, the only thing I own that they are less dynamic than is my Klipsch gear but shockingly only slightly so. That's what is so shocking about them, I didn't expect that at all. The imaging is even good for such a boxy looking speaker. I don't know how they do all of this. So it sounds like if I went up the IMF chain I might lose some of that dynamic character. I'm near Indianapolis, I would love to do a listening session trade with someone local that has IMF...they'd be welcome to hear the Frieds.

 

[mccarty350]

Do you know what the MSRP was and the years it sold? Probably would say something about how it was positioned and what it had to compete against.

Based on what you said about weight, fullness, etc, I'd guess TLS 80 as closest equivalent, but that's just a guess. Has the same bass and mid driver I think. So like a 3-way version of the 80 using a different line scheme?

All that matters is that it sounds good, and congrats on getting a screaming deal. :thmbsp:

I got my TLS 50 II's for a good price, but not that good! I liked them so much that it made me look for the RSPM's, so if you're the same, you may end up with another pair of Frieds, TDL's, or IMF's at some point.

I've recapped 4 pairs of speakers, and on 3/4, it made a pretty big difference. So I think it'll be worth the time/effort/$ to see if it further improves your R's.

I am in the same boat, this is making me want to sell some of my other gear and move up the IMF or Fried chain. Unfortunately it sounds like I might already be at the top of the Fried chain without seeking out an obscure pre-built kit so IMF might be it - if IMF's retain most of the attributes I enjoy. But for that matter, perhaps KEF captures some of this sound as well and might need to be looked at since the drivers seem to come from that world in most cases? If there are other brands that capture this sound type I'd be open to them too. The stereotype that British sound is reserved is what kept me from looking into them, my AR's are about as east coast as I would like but these things are anything but reserved. I have no real Celestion, KEF, Tannoy, etc. exposure to make judgements nor do I know any local folks that have any of those brands to audition. As far as the TLS 80's bass, I'm guessing it's gotta be nicer considering the full TL implementation but to me that's not phenomenally important, I use a little M&K sub crossed over pretty low to supplement low end bass.

Great news that your recaps had impact, I already ordered my caps last night I will report back as soon as I recap them. I'm pretty excited about it.

 

[canuckaudiog]

Allow me to jump in here..

If you're not into laid back speakers, I don't think Kef is the way you want to go. Well, actually with a slight modification to the KUBE of my 107s that laid back approach pretty much disappeared! But the older models I don't believe such modifications are as easy to execute (I changed the op-amp in the KUBE if you're wondering). Celestion speakers are more forward and more "fun" to listen to - they're more colored but, like the AR speaker, easy and non-fatiguing and overall a joy to own.

Seeking out the IMF line is a great idea. However, don't feel you need to get one of the big models to get the sound. Everything from the IMF Super Compact up all retain that same character of sound, the only main difference being that the RSPM has a higher quality crossover with film capacitors bypassed on all the filters, and also the transmission line which allows for deeper bass extension. Take whatever you can get because you are not missing out in my opinion.

As for Fried vs. IMF I have no idea. I've never even done any reading on the Fried sound so I can't even drum up anything from that. I can tell you though that IMF speakers are highly regarded and, even if they do not best the Frieds, they will at least give you a unique flavor of sound that you won't hear anywhere else. It's something you have to try to see. If you were local I'd be happy to have you over to check out my RSPM Mk IVs :thmbsp:

Anyway, good luck with your journey, if you have any questions about IMF speakers at all feel free to shoot me a PM.

 

[JimPA]

I am in the same boat, this is making me want to sell some of my other gear and move up the IMF or Fried chain. Unfortunately it sounds like I might already be at the top of the Fried chain without seeking out an obscure pre-built kit so IMF might be it - if IMF's retain most of the attributes I enjoy.

The top of the Fried chain were the C6 T-line satellites and O6 T-line subwoofers. They used a Kevlar Carbon fiber composite cone driver with the Hiquphon 20mm dome tweeters.
Enclosed is the side view of the sub enclosures that were used in the O4-O6 models and some reviews.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466490&d=1383443485

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/spea.../fried/vahalla-system/prd_119534_1594crx.aspx

Also enclosed is a picture of one of my C6 and O6 drivers.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/album.php?albumid=911&pictureid=16263

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/album.php?albumid=911&pictureid=5697

You can also find out more about the many Fried designs in this thread.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=504495

A few links of vintage Fried designs. Check out the 1979 Sonkit brochure.

https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedmodeltsubwoofer

https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedbiispeakers

 

[janikphoto]

There's a nice-looking pair on the Dallas CL right now, but I don't know the model number...

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ele/4159732906.html

 

[Wigwam Jones]

The only thing I have to offer is this; since the Fried speakers in question are considered classics, if they were mine, I would only recap with as close to the original spec capacitors as I could find. It's pretty clear that the designers went to great lengths to obtain a particular sound, based on what they had available at the time. I would not want to change that with different type capacitors. I'm not saying that the sound cannot be improved with more modern caps, but that is an unknown. A more expensive, designer brand, or other style of cap might well sound different, but who's to know it will sound better? I would stick with stock caps or as close to it as possible.

 

[EVBoy]

Wow JP, they look nice. That's a lot of money though.

 

[mccarty350]

Allow me to jump in here..

If you're not into laid back speakers, I don't think Kef is the way you want to go. Well, actually with a slight modification to the KUBE of my 107s that laid back approach pretty much disappeared! But the older models I don't believe such modifications are as easy to execute (I changed the op-amp in the KUBE if you're wondering). Celestion speakers are more forward and more "fun" to listen to - they're more colored but, like the AR speaker, easy and non-fatiguing and overall a joy to own.

I can't say I'm not into laid back speakers, from my signature I think a lot of what I own are larger east coast sound or laid back speakers. If KEF is more laid back then AR is then I probably need to abstain or at least hear a pair first before I go on a rampage to shoot for the moon and get my own 107's. BTW, I am more than glad you joined the thread, I have read many of yours (read your IMF vs KEF shootout just today). Congrats on having some phenomenal speakers and for being a home owner! So perhaps Celestions should be what I should want to listen to? I have no problem with colored sound type if it's a sound type that I enjoy. The AR9 is pretty uncolored and neutral, it's a very good speaker but I kind of get bored with it BECAUSE it is so neutral.

Seeking out the IMF line is a great idea. However, don't feel you need to get one of the big models to get the sound. Everything from the IMF Super Compact up all retain that same character of sound, the only main difference being that the RSPM has a higher quality crossover with film capacitors bypassed on all the filters, and also the transmission line which allows for deeper bass extension. Take whatever you can get because you are not missing out in my opinion.

Unfortunately none of them are in my area but if the super compact has similar sound and is just missing bass I can take care of that with a high quality sub filling in the bottom end. As far as a higher quality crossover with film bypasses I can do that myself. I'll keep an eye out for anything I can get which - at the moment - appears to be nothing. My concern is that he SPL's that an IMF product put out might not be enough to satisfy me. I'm not saying I listen to ear bleed but I tend to listen louder than your average person.

As for Fried vs. IMF I have no idea. I've never even done any reading on the Fried sound so I can't even drum up anything from that. I can tell you though that IMF speakers are highly regarded and, even if they do not best the Frieds, they will at least give you a unique flavor of sound that you won't hear anywhere else. It's something you have to try to see. If you were local I'd be happy to have you over to check out my RSPM Mk IVs :thmbsp:

I don't always think in terms of one speaker being better than another but I think in terms of flavors as you've stated. I was starting to get bored of audio but hearing these Frieds made me aware of a new flavor and one that I quite like. I'd be happy to chase some IMF's, I will keep an eye out. Might be smart if I fall into a smaller model to begin with. If I do any travelling up north I'll definitely IM you and see if I can stop in if I am proximate, I extend the same to you if you're anywhere in the US near Indianapolis!

Anyway, good luck with your journey, if you have any questions about IMF speakers at all feel free to shoot me a PM.

Thank and I appreciate you chipping in. I may take you up on that PM depending on what pops up

John

 

[mccarty350]

The only thing I have to offer is this; since the Fried speakers in question are considered classics, if they were mine, I would only recap with as close to the original spec capacitors as I could find. It's pretty clear that the designers went to great lengths to obtain a particular sound, based on what they had available at the time. I would not want to change that with different type capacitors. I'm not saying that the sound cannot be improved with more modern caps, but that is an unknown. A more expensive, designer brand, or other style of cap might well sound different, but who's to know it will sound better? I would stick with stock caps or as close to it as possible.

So this is what I ordered. For the NPE's I was luckily able to find exact matching value replacements in NPE. For the 2 x 4.7 UF mylers I ordered metallized poly replacements of the exact same value. Since this is a PCB at least I'll have the option as I solder out the old caps to be able to re-introduce them if I notice any loss of the sound that I enjoyed in the first place. I don't go too far into the designer area, I ordered a 5% Audyn metallyzed poly cap for the tweeters, I usually use Erse but they didn't have exact values so I shifted to Parts Express and Audyn was the cheapest decent metallized poly cap for the buck. The NPE's won't be going back in since I'm sure at this age that there has been drift on the existing NPE's and that they need to be replaced from a maintenance perspective before some LF gets through and wrecks a tweeter or some such.

 

[mccarty350]

The top of the Fried chain were the C6 T-line satellites and O6 T-line subwoofers. They used a Kevlar Carbon fiber composite cone driver with the Hiquphon 20mm dome tweeters.
Enclosed is the side view of the sub enclosures that were used in the O4-O6 models and some reviews.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466490&d=1383443485

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/spea.../fried/vahalla-system/prd_119534_1594crx.aspx

Also enclosed is a picture of one of my C6 and O6 drivers.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/album.php?albumid=911&pictureid=16263

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/album.php?albumid=911&pictureid=5697

You can also find out more about the many Fried designs in this thread.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=504495

A few links of vintage Fried designs. Check out the 1979 Sonkit brochure.

https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedmodeltsubwoofer

https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedbiispeakers

GREAT LINKS!!!! That sub/sat system is impressive looking but for some reason I like the concept of actual floor-standers better than sub/sat, maybe because the HT era has soured me on the whole genre. That model that JP posted looks interesting, do those look familiar to you at all? I'm going to take your links wholesale and read them through and through tonight like a junkie.

 

[mccarty350]

There's a nice-looking pair on the Dallas CL right now, but I don't know the model number...

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ele/4159732906.html

Okay...this could me the mystery 'high set on the Fried food chain' speaker that I've been wondering about the existence of. That's good size, that's bordering on IMF TLS series sizing.

 

[JimPA]

Those are one of the various model G that were built. There were 3 versions of them made over the years. The G use a line tunnel for the 10" driver that is crossed over at 99hz and a T-line for the 6.5"' mid bass driver. The model G's don't image as well as the various C models due to the wider baffles.
The various model G's use the same drivers as the various model C and O models and were much lower in price.

The C3L-C6 and O4-O6 speakers were his TOTL speaker until the company was sold for the third time. before his death. :tears:

 

[JimPA]

Wow JP, they look nice. That's a lot of money though.

The last year that the C6 and O6 models were made the MSRP were around 9-10k$ in 2001.

 

[mccarty350]

The last year that the C6 and O6 models were made the MSRP were around 9-10k$ in 2001.

Jeesh, I had no idea that the prices were so high on these things! It's crazy! As I'm reading about all of these great speakers between KEF/Fried/IMF the one thing that seems to be in common (and is incorporated in designs all the way from the 70's all the way up into the 90's in 'improved form') is the B110 midrange. That seems to be the primary driver that all of these great speakers have in common.

 

[Nat]

The TLS 50 and the Super Compacts (and, I think the ALSs) had a smaller midrange which looked like it was coated pulp.

The number of fancy pants speakers with KEF drivers and transmission lines is surprisingly large, both UK and american manufacturers being represented. Having had IMFs and having the ESS Transtatics (which marry the B139 and B110, both TL loaded, to ESL units), I get why the bextrene drivers were so highly esteemed and then why they fell out of fashion.
I think that lack of coloration and uniform frequency response are important and appealling, but the cost in liveliness and dynamics (which is somewhat ameliorated by very serious electronics) is a heavy price to pay for them.
I think the Frieds may be more to my taste at this point.

 

[mccarty350]

Did the TLS 50 and Super Compacts maintain the same type of sound despite using different drivers? I had started to assume that it was the B110 that had the liquid/lush mid characteristic that was part of the huge draw.

I do like the employment of the term 'fancy pants' speakers. It pretty much portrays what I thought of them accurately as well...but now having a pair of fancy pants speakers they do seem to earn their fanciness. ESS Transtatics...now I'm going to have to research those as well. So it's good to know that the frieds are one of the few that utilize those drivers that have good dynamics. That's really a lot of the appeal...I didn't know that that was an unusual attribute until you mentioned it in a prior post. It is possible that my near-field listening position (I'm about 5' out) exaggerates the dynamics? Don't know....I really would love to A/B Fried and IMF or at least find someone that has heard both to really state if there's a radical difference in dynamics. Maybe the resistive line has more dynamic sound than a legit DL? But half of the dynamics that I perceive come from the mids which are closed-back tube loaded.