VPI Turntable Owners Thread
- Thread starter MikeCh
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edwyun
Super Member
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I was finally able to source a pristine set of HR-X Mini feet this past winter. They're much heavier than I expected. Internally there is what appears to be a rubber bushing between the plinth attachment screw and the footers. I already had a good isolation base set-up but these feet take it up a notch. Even though they have 3 ball bearing contact points per foot as opposed to 1 on the stock aluminium cone feet IMO they're much better because the cone feet are basically a direct hard coupling to the base, any slight vibrations will come through.
I waited until summertime to confirm that the HRX-Mini feet would mitigate the slight mechanical vibration noise I was picking-up (on monitor headphones- stylus on stationary record) from the A/C compressor outside of my house (nobody would have ever heard it as it was below the surface noise on the record but it bothered me knowing it was there...yeah I'm as crazy as the rest of you
). Our Trane A/C compressor is outside, adjacent to the room where I have my TT's so when it would kick in I could detect it while testing. In my room the HRX-Mini's did the trick, they added that extra bit of isolation I needed. I can see why the HRX-Mini feet were standard on the "Reference" model.
I think I chose the right belt drive 'table and so far I have it dialed in right where I want it...
I waited until summertime to confirm that the HRX-Mini feet would mitigate the slight mechanical vibration noise I was picking-up (on monitor headphones- stylus on stationary record) from the A/C compressor outside of my house (nobody would have ever heard it as it was below the surface noise on the record but it bothered me knowing it was there...yeah I'm as crazy as the rest of you
). Our Trane A/C compressor is outside, adjacent to the room where I have my TT's so when it would kick in I could detect it while testing. In my room the HRX-Mini's did the trick, they added that extra bit of isolation I needed. I can see why the HRX-Mini feet were standard on the "Reference" model.I think I chose the right belt drive 'table and so far I have it dialed in right where I want it...
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Looks like this thread has been pretty dead for a while so I figured I'd give it a bump and post an update to share my impressions of the rim drive I bought to try out. I've been curious about these rare birds for a while so I put out a feeler and found one locally!
Mass:
First off, I will say that the Single Motor Rim Drive is deceiving in pictures. This thing is a beast, the flywheel alone (pictured below) weighs just under 10lbs and the complete RD motor weighs over 21lbs! These appear to be much more substantial than the current rim drive flywheels being sold by VPI. Below is a bottom-view picture of the flywheel, you can see it's completely solid.
Set-up:
These drives are not for the impatient or non-tweakers. They require very careful positioning to get right. The RD and table must be perfectly level to each other, the O-ring on the rim itself that makes contact with the platter must be set perfectly with no twists and the amount of pressure placed against the platter (as well as where on the platter it makes contact) must be precise if you want to achieve the lowest w/f possible.
The contact area is basically less than two fingertips lightly touching each other, maybe 1/8". The RD barely touches the platter when set properly. I spent a few weeks experimenting with the set-up process and various drive-belt compositions. The RD motor assembly is on a custom made brass sled that rests on an acrylic base. I can move the RD closer or further away from the platter by turning the knob on the back end of the sled in either direction. This makes fine tuning adjustments a breeze.
Controller:
Up until now I was getting away without an a/c controller while using the standard belt drive motor. After warm-up I would check the speed with my KAB Speedstrobe and move the SAMA closer or further away accordingly if I had to fine-tune the speed.
This was no longer an option with the RD, a controller is definitely required. I really didn't want a large controller unit and was tired of checking/adjusting with the speedstrobe. I wanted a Phoenix Eagle & RR because it checked a lot of boxes for me so I stepped up the search. They're hard to come by so @hirscwi pointed me to some of the great controller builds that @phoenixengr (Bill Carlin) has posted over @diyForum and I was almost at the point of going that route but then I got lucky and found an Eagle/RR combo. I must say, I communicated with Bill Carlin via email and he was really helpful and went above and beyond for me. These are great products and they work perfectly with the RD.
Sound:
Wow, wow, wow...this is the one that blew me away. Never in a million years did I expect such an improvement over the belt drive. I'm still shocked when I listen. I spent a lot of time in the set-up process, but even so I was sure that I was going to hear more noise with the rim drive but the opposite was true, the noise floor dropped dramatically. This thing is virtually like spinning an unobstructed platter with your finger and letting it go... amazing.
I even did a few listening tests on closed back monitor headphones with the volume at what would be max listening levels in an attempt to detect noise. There was no way I was keeping this thing if it was noisier than the belt set-up:
As to how the music actually sounds, it's also not what I expected. For some reason I was expecting the difference (if any) to be more slam for lack of a better word but what I heard was an incredible increased openness to the sound. I already loved the sound of the Scoutmaster with the regular belt drive, it's not warm and thick (which I don't like) but clear and almost analytical yet tape-like if that makes sense. The Rim Drive just takes everything to another level. Musical notes are crisp, clear, taut and sparkle in the open space of a black background.
I can see why the Rim Drive is reserved for VPI's TOTL Reference decks.
The only drawback is that my Gingko tabletop cover no longer fits and so far it looks like I'm going to keep the Rim Drive.
Mass:
First off, I will say that the Single Motor Rim Drive is deceiving in pictures. This thing is a beast, the flywheel alone (pictured below) weighs just under 10lbs and the complete RD motor weighs over 21lbs! These appear to be much more substantial than the current rim drive flywheels being sold by VPI. Below is a bottom-view picture of the flywheel, you can see it's completely solid.
Set-up:
These drives are not for the impatient or non-tweakers. They require very careful positioning to get right. The RD and table must be perfectly level to each other, the O-ring on the rim itself that makes contact with the platter must be set perfectly with no twists and the amount of pressure placed against the platter (as well as where on the platter it makes contact) must be precise if you want to achieve the lowest w/f possible.
The contact area is basically less than two fingertips lightly touching each other, maybe 1/8". The RD barely touches the platter when set properly. I spent a few weeks experimenting with the set-up process and various drive-belt compositions. The RD motor assembly is on a custom made brass sled that rests on an acrylic base. I can move the RD closer or further away from the platter by turning the knob on the back end of the sled in either direction. This makes fine tuning adjustments a breeze.
Controller:
Up until now I was getting away without an a/c controller while using the standard belt drive motor. After warm-up I would check the speed with my KAB Speedstrobe and move the SAMA closer or further away accordingly if I had to fine-tune the speed.
This was no longer an option with the RD, a controller is definitely required. I really didn't want a large controller unit and was tired of checking/adjusting with the speedstrobe. I wanted a Phoenix Eagle & RR because it checked a lot of boxes for me so I stepped up the search. They're hard to come by so @hirscwi pointed me to some of the great controller builds that @phoenixengr (Bill Carlin) has posted over @diyForum and I was almost at the point of going that route but then I got lucky and found an Eagle/RR combo. I must say, I communicated with Bill Carlin via email and he was really helpful and went above and beyond for me. These are great products and they work perfectly with the RD.
Sound:
Wow, wow, wow...this is the one that blew me away. Never in a million years did I expect such an improvement over the belt drive. I'm still shocked when I listen. I spent a lot of time in the set-up process, but even so I was sure that I was going to hear more noise with the rim drive but the opposite was true, the noise floor dropped dramatically. This thing is virtually like spinning an unobstructed platter with your finger and letting it go... amazing.
I even did a few listening tests on closed back monitor headphones with the volume at what would be max listening levels in an attempt to detect noise. There was no way I was keeping this thing if it was noisier than the belt set-up:
- First I disengaged the rim drive from the platter and placed the stylus on a stationary record and listened while turning the motor on/off to see if I could detect any noise. No change was detected so that massive motor housing and flywheel do a great job of dissipating all motor vibrations.
- Now I wanted to test to see if I could detect any physical rim drive noise while it was making contact with and spinning the platter. So again with monitor headphones I listened to the dead tracks on my test record, then disengaged the rim from the platter on the fly and then shut the motor off. No change in noise was detectable with the stylus riding in the groove of the still spinning platter.
- Next I listened to various records I'm familiar with and paid close attention to the lead-in and silent space between tracks and the Rim Drive was much quieter than the belt drive.
As to how the music actually sounds, it's also not what I expected. For some reason I was expecting the difference (if any) to be more slam for lack of a better word but what I heard was an incredible increased openness to the sound. I already loved the sound of the Scoutmaster with the regular belt drive, it's not warm and thick (which I don't like) but clear and almost analytical yet tape-like if that makes sense. The Rim Drive just takes everything to another level. Musical notes are crisp, clear, taut and sparkle in the open space of a black background.
I can see why the Rim Drive is reserved for VPI's TOTL Reference decks.
The only drawback is that my Gingko tabletop cover no longer fits and so far it looks like I'm going to keep the Rim Drive.
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WillCanada
New Member
Hi I have a question regards to this arm.The two side knobs for the Azimuth seems to be non adjustable.I tried unscrewing them but it would not budge,.Is there some sort of set screw to unlock it or this model its non adjustable,I know I can do the Azimuth using the counterweight at the back.This is a VPI scout.
Hi I have a question regards to this arm.The two side knobs for the Azimuth seems to be non adjustable.I tried unscrewing them but it would not budge,.Is there some sort of set screw to unlock it or this model its non adjustable,I know I can do the Azimuth using the counterweight at the back.This is a VPI scout.
Yes, they are fixed on that arm as I mentioned in the other thread. Use the counterweight orientation or the SoundSmith Counter Intuitive you have on there to fine tune adjustments.
https://www.sound-smith.com/accessories/counter-intuitive-vpi-tone-arms
Years ago enjoyed both a VPI Scout, then a Scoutmaster, which I souped up with various platter upgrades, speed control, arms, etc. Then I got a bug for vintage, and moved on. Well, today I made a trade for this HW19II with a Graham 1.5 tonearm, and I'm really enjoying it. While I never owned one of these, I had a couple of friends that did(can't remember which version) and always liked the looks and feel of them. Didn't realize how large, and how heavy they are. But Harry wasn't fooling around when he made these.
Anyway, glad to be back in the family
Anyway, glad to be back in the family
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Very happy with this table, but am curious about performing some basic maintenance. To begin with, how do I remove the platter and spindle to oil the spindle bearing? Can't find any info about that. Is it possible on this table?
And I assume adding a drop or two of oil to the top of the motor is the way to handle that piece?
And I assume adding a drop or two of oil to the top of the motor is the way to handle that piece?
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
There's a lot written here about the HW-19. Folks such as Tedrick, and I have written a lot.
The Platter should merely lift off the Bearing. But I'll note that I have seen HW-19's where it appeared the Platter was actually like a press fit onto the Bearing Shaft-Spndle, so, use caution.
It would take me a lengthy response to tell you how to do bearing maintenence and lube, but I'll comment a little. Usually Mobil 1 5-30 will be fine for the bearing, and one drop for the Drive Motor Shaft. 30w or 40w will work for the drive motor. Insure you place that oil where that shaft enters the motor.
There will be a Bearing Ball on the bottom of the Bearing Shaft. Inspect it, and replace if needed. It is .250" in diameter. With a clean bearing well, and a flashlight, one can also inspect the small thrust bearing disc at the bottom of the Well without the need of removing the Bottom Screw Plug.
Long Q-tips on a stick come in handy for wiping out without full disassembly. Insure you leave no cotton behind.
After cleaning, the Bearing only needs about 2 drops placed into the Bearing Well so the Bearing Ball-Thrust Plate stays lubed, and then with a finger, lightly apply an extremely ultra thin coat to the Bearing Shaft, and replace without forcing the Bearing Shaft back down into the Well. You may also very lightly coat the top Bushing within the Bearing Well if you like.
It is very easy to over-lubricate.
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Thanks.
I'm familiar with maintenance for turntables, VPI's included. But was wondering how to get at the spindle bearing. I've tried gently to lift the platter off and it's not moving. There doesn't seem to be a need to do anything. Speed is spot on, platter moves freely, so I'm not concerned. But was wondering for the future how to get the platter off.
I'm familiar with maintenance for turntables, VPI's included. But was wondering how to get at the spindle bearing. I've tried gently to lift the platter off and it's not moving. There doesn't seem to be a need to do anything. Speed is spot on, platter moves freely, so I'm not concerned. But was wondering for the future how to get the platter off.
dosley01
Active Member
I went down a similar road, Scout, Classic and Prime. I bought a HW-19 on a whim, and when it was damaged in shipping, decided to rebuild it completely. New or refurbished every last piece. I have almost enough spare parts now to build another.
dosley01
Active Member
It lifts straight up. Probably a bit of vacuum created by the oil in the bearing well.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
As explained, the platter should be able to be lifted straight up off the Table. And as I mentioned earlier, it can be possible that the Bearing Shaft (which the threaded spindle is part of) may be a press fit into the Platter itself.
If you find it is, I would leave it that way. And to not try separating the two parts. To do so might create excess platter wobble.
Regardless if all seems to work properly, no issues noted, it will be a good idea to inspect the Bearing, do a clean and re-lube, and from there you'll have piece of mind knowing all is in proper shape, and that you have a known starting point as far as bearing lube maintenence goes.
I know over the many years, I have discussed the HW-19 with many other owners about the standard non-inverted Bearing that was commonly used on the HW-19. That some had found damage such as galling, wear, pitting of the small Bearing Ball at the Bottom of the bearing Shaft.
By right, that Bearing Ball should be easily removable, and should move-rotate within the Shaft's machined depression for the Bearing Ball, but I have encountered some who have had a near impossible time to extract that Ball from the Shaft.
If that Bearing Ball has any damage noted, it definitely should be replaced. The standard Ball that VPI provided was nothing special, just a 10 cent chromium steel Ball is all.
I eventually swapped the metal ball for a .250" ceramic ball from Boca Bearing. (was about $5) Much harder, and much more smooth-round than an average metal bearing ball. So hard in fact that the ball can survive the absence of lubricants, and of course would probably last a lifetime provided proper lubrication of the bearing was insured.
Usually, such ceramic bearing balls don't wear like steel. Under extreme pressure, they don't commonly wear or gall, they will shatter. For such to happen with the HW-19, one would probably need a 70lb platter.
I know there's a good deal of technical reasons why certain materials are selected for bearing mating surfaces-materials. The Tungsten Thrust Bearing Pad that resides in the bottom of the bearing well is said to have a rockwell hardness of 92. Still, it can wear over time, a small depression can-will form.
A ceramic ball can possibly accelerate wear of this tungsten thrust bearing, but I think with lubes, this will be a non-issue.
The whole idea of the Bearing Ball, and thrust plate-pad, is to provide the smallest contact patch-point between the two. That the Platter and Bearing are essentially just riding on an extremely small contact surface not much larger than that of a Pin Head.
Here's what I used SI3N4 Ceramic, at the top of this list shown.
https://www.bocabearings.com/products/bearing-and-ball-types/balls?ProductType=0
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Pio1980
AK Member
I have a Mk-3 spindle assy refurbed (gratis) by @marcmorin yet to be swapped in, he recommended 30W, iirc.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Yes, and preferably one should use a full synthetic Oil. For VPI's Inverted Bearings, a different design, they commonly use a Grease instead.
So the platter/spindle was able to be removed, and I have been using qtips to clean out the well. Added a few drops of Mobil DTE light oil. Thought I had some bearing grease lying around so ordered a tube and will add when I get it. Other then that table running beautifully.
Thanks for the help.
Thanks for the help.
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