oblomov
Well-Known Member
Brings back memories -- yeah, 7 grams because of the pennies taped to the top of the headshell! So the arm would stay on the record!
We are doomed
- Thread starter barkerd
- Start date
Brings back memories -- yeah, 7 grams because of the pennies taped to the top of the headshell! So the arm would stay on the record!
I thought about this last night kn my way home from the opening show of Van Halen's A Different Kind of Truth world tour, and came to the conclusion that we like what we like due to the music. At that show, audio quality did not matter, I was watching Van Halen live. So, for my generation, we are in the "its all about the music" stage. Eventually, some will join us and care about quality. Until then, all we can do is try to convert them.
Arkay
Lunatic Member
That depends a bit on what the music is, doesn't it? Some rap songs have lyrics that would make the proverbial sailor blush, lyrics that advocate rape, murder and all sorts of heinous nonsense. I'm not being prudish, either.
Unfortunately, this easily becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. If music doesn't sound great and isn't "involving", then you won't want to just sit and listen to it. Listen on a crappy system, and you'll want to do something else, very soon. A really great quality system, however, can almost compel you to sit and listen, even to songs that you'd ordinarily find only average, and not worth sitting and listening to. The problem is one of exposure. If you've never heard really good sound quality, you won't think you want it. If all I had to listen to music with was laptop speakers and/or compressed MP3 files with excessive autotune, I'd probably never want to just listen to music, either. If that is what I know of music, then I certainly won't want to seek out better-quality sound reproduction, either... after all, I never just listen to music... the cycle just reinforces itself.
I do this a lot, too. If I read the name of a band I'm not familiar with (perhaps mentioned by someone here on AK, or in a newspaper or magazine article, or elsewhere online), I'll go straight to YouTube to hear what they sound like. Then I'll often click on a link to the side, then another, and another... and sometimes I discover new artists I LIKE that way. I enjoy the process, even if not all the songs are good (one can always click away from a song before it finishes).
But I think of that as somewhat different from LISTENING TO MUSIC, the way I do when spinning my favorite vinyl LPs on the turntable through the main system. The YouTube searching may occasionally lead to the purchase of new CDs or vinyl records, though, so there is some linkage, but the focus is a bit different with each of the two activities.
There are, indeed, some outstanding musicians in Japan, mostly unknown to the outside world (and some relatively unknown within Japan, too!).
ledzep1968
Budding Audiophile
Hey, I'm a sophomore in HS and I take offense to that! 
My friends think I'm crazy because I say that analog is better than digital. I can't explain fidelity to them because "it doesn't matter to their ears". I try to preach of bit rates, compression, sample rates....and why analog is superior. I want to show them what a good stereo system is and try to "convert" them.
Once you go high-fidelity...you never go back.
My friends think I'm crazy because I say that analog is better than digital. I can't explain fidelity to them because "it doesn't matter to their ears". I try to preach of bit rates, compression, sample rates....and why analog is superior. I want to show them what a good stereo system is and try to "convert" them.
Once you go high-fidelity...you never go back.
Im a 19yr old college kid. I'm well aware that the songs on youtube that people rip are absolute crap. Most with bit rates in the range of 120-160. Playing on my equipment, I can immediately tell that the sound quality is complete garbage. I usually have to revert to CD's i've actually purchased, or the music I have downloaded from iTunes with rates of 256.
This is why I have been considering the iTunes match, just to get the songs that I have in my library to a better quality...
This is why I have been considering the iTunes match, just to get the songs that I have in my library to a better quality...
ledzep1968
Budding Audiophile
I can't even listen to songs on YouTube. If they're uploaded in 480p, they're okay but if it's anything less than that, forget it. Also, when you download a YT song onto your iPod, you can easily hear artifacts in both channels. :thumbsdn:
Rowrbazzle
Active Member
There are a couple of separate but related issues here -- all very interesting.
First, I'm a freelance music reviewer (just a hobby, really) and consequently, I listen to a lot of new recordings. More and more, I find that an alarming number of them are so compressed and otherwise badly recorded that I'm running from one stereo system to another (I have three in the house), worried that I've had an unexpected amplifier or speaker failure. That actually happened twice today. And I'm not talking about grunge or garage or punk here -- these are often jazz and mainstream pop recordings. It's almost as if they are recorded for the lowest common denominator sound source -- as if someone has said, "well, we don't have to make them sound any better than they would as an MP3 file" -- or whatever. So people, in general, are bombarded with crappy-sounding music to the extent that this is their "standard." When they hear something better, it simply does not compute -- at least not immediately.
Second, a lot of what teens listen to (as opposed to college students) is endless variations of three-chord garage rock, with lots of built-in, deliberate distortion, especially from the guitars. There's no way that you're going to turn this music into a high fidelity experience. In fact, the term "low-fi" was coined a number of years ago to describe this kind of music. Some bands wear their low-fi credentials like a badge. And when I think back on what I listened to as a teenager in the late 50s (lots of street corner doo wop, R&B, rockabilly, etc.), this music was all about style, with crude barbershop harmonies, honking saxes and raw energy. I have occasionally heard new or remastered versions of some of this music and it almost dilutes the experience.
Third (and there was at least one good post to this effect earlier), there are many, many people who don't really hear music at all, but just absorb it as part of their cultural gestalt. These are people who, later in life, will have little interest in any kind of music, aside from the nostalgia that is produced when they hear an "oldie" and are transported back to their first make-out session with Betty Sue. These people are probably tone deaf and essentially a lost cause.
In my day, most of my peers developed discernment during their undergraduate years in university -- and I think that is still true. There are still audiophiles out there -- or potential audiophiles -- just as there are people who can appreciate the differences between a good Chardonnay and a good Pinot Gris. But that comes in time, if at all. And the guy who listens his music on Youtube??? He's just participating in a cultural ritual --"digging the scene," as they say. He's not really hearing anything -- and probably never will.
Having said all that, I applaud every attempt to educate young people, even if the innoculation doesn't always appear to "take." Sometimes it works subliminally. One of the smartest things I ever did was to give my youngest daughter a Christmas present many years ago of some early CDs by the Beatles, the Who, the Kinks, etc. when she was in her early teens. She rolled her eyes when she caught sight of them, but several months later, I could hear her playing some of them over and over again in her room. And she turned into a very knowledgable music enthusiast with a real understanding of popular music history.
It's the same thing with sound quality. Find music that someone already likes (let's not make it TOO challenging), play it for them on a good system where they'll hear things in the music that they may not have heard before, and they'll get the point -- even if they don't realize it right away, or won't admit it.
Of course, if there's no nuance in the music they like, that won't work. Musical tastes have to develop along with an appreciation of good sound. And if it doesn't develop, well, then it doesn't. But I don't think that's any different than it was 50 years ago.
So I'm not quire prepared to say that we're doomed.
First, I'm a freelance music reviewer (just a hobby, really) and consequently, I listen to a lot of new recordings. More and more, I find that an alarming number of them are so compressed and otherwise badly recorded that I'm running from one stereo system to another (I have three in the house), worried that I've had an unexpected amplifier or speaker failure. That actually happened twice today. And I'm not talking about grunge or garage or punk here -- these are often jazz and mainstream pop recordings. It's almost as if they are recorded for the lowest common denominator sound source -- as if someone has said, "well, we don't have to make them sound any better than they would as an MP3 file" -- or whatever. So people, in general, are bombarded with crappy-sounding music to the extent that this is their "standard." When they hear something better, it simply does not compute -- at least not immediately.
Second, a lot of what teens listen to (as opposed to college students) is endless variations of three-chord garage rock, with lots of built-in, deliberate distortion, especially from the guitars. There's no way that you're going to turn this music into a high fidelity experience. In fact, the term "low-fi" was coined a number of years ago to describe this kind of music. Some bands wear their low-fi credentials like a badge. And when I think back on what I listened to as a teenager in the late 50s (lots of street corner doo wop, R&B, rockabilly, etc.), this music was all about style, with crude barbershop harmonies, honking saxes and raw energy. I have occasionally heard new or remastered versions of some of this music and it almost dilutes the experience.
Third (and there was at least one good post to this effect earlier), there are many, many people who don't really hear music at all, but just absorb it as part of their cultural gestalt. These are people who, later in life, will have little interest in any kind of music, aside from the nostalgia that is produced when they hear an "oldie" and are transported back to their first make-out session with Betty Sue. These people are probably tone deaf and essentially a lost cause.
In my day, most of my peers developed discernment during their undergraduate years in university -- and I think that is still true. There are still audiophiles out there -- or potential audiophiles -- just as there are people who can appreciate the differences between a good Chardonnay and a good Pinot Gris. But that comes in time, if at all. And the guy who listens his music on Youtube??? He's just participating in a cultural ritual --"digging the scene," as they say. He's not really hearing anything -- and probably never will.
Having said all that, I applaud every attempt to educate young people, even if the innoculation doesn't always appear to "take." Sometimes it works subliminally. One of the smartest things I ever did was to give my youngest daughter a Christmas present many years ago of some early CDs by the Beatles, the Who, the Kinks, etc. when she was in her early teens. She rolled her eyes when she caught sight of them, but several months later, I could hear her playing some of them over and over again in her room. And she turned into a very knowledgable music enthusiast with a real understanding of popular music history.
It's the same thing with sound quality. Find music that someone already likes (let's not make it TOO challenging), play it for them on a good system where they'll hear things in the music that they may not have heard before, and they'll get the point -- even if they don't realize it right away, or won't admit it.
Of course, if there's no nuance in the music they like, that won't work. Musical tastes have to develop along with an appreciation of good sound. And if it doesn't develop, well, then it doesn't. But I don't think that's any different than it was 50 years ago.
So I'm not quire prepared to say that we're doomed.
ledzep1968
Budding Audiophile
About a year ago for my 14th birthday my dad gave me a Doors CD as a present. I was completely blown away. I wish I could relive that moment of hearing Led Zeppelin, The Doors, The Beatles...Kinks...etc again. I'm envious of your daughter!
Ah, young Jedi...the Force is indeed strong with you:thmbsp:
Rowrbazzle
Active Member
Good on ya, ledzep. A few years later, I accompanied my daughter to concerts where I heard some of her favourite bands at the time -- Tool, Pavement, Prodigy, etc. I enjoyed it all immensely and I still enjoy good alt rock as I ease toward my 70th birthday. But the early stuff (I think a Doors CD was also included in my Christmas gift to her) is part of rock's heritage. And almost all decent rock musicians know their rock history -- even if they don't talk about it. When I listened to Tool live, I heard Led Zeppelin. When I listen to the Flaming Lips, I hear the Beatles. Not copying -- but as a major influence.
andy
Super Member
As a kid in the late 80's to early 90's I would have loved to have had a source that was as good as an iPod. High bit rate MP3s would have been a lot better than the source I had for most of my childhood. Kids today probably don't notice the sound of poor compression in the same way I didn't notice anything wrong with my BSR changer with the ceramic cartridge.
ledzep1968
Budding Audiophile
I know that Tool covered No Quarter at least once. I didn't like it, but it was going back to their roots nonetheless. I love it, it's a good chance for people that are into the newer metal bands to get into older rock.
Precisely. It's like comparing to YouTube, we'd choose 1080p, they'd choose 240p.
dnewma04
The Healer
Couldn't agree more.
Rowrbazzle
Active Member
Makes me think of my own encounters with fidelity, or lack thereof. Like my old 45 rpm player where I would tape a penny, then a nickel, then a quarter to the tone arm when a record started skipping. Replacing the cartridge or stylus in the unit was only a last resort. And all the music I heard in the late 50s and 60s on really bad car radios, accompanied by lots of road noise. Granted, a lot of that music was low-fidelity to begin with -- especially in the 50s -- but occasionally I will hear something now on an oldies compilation or greatest hits collection on a good stereo (not even necessarily remastered) and think, "holy crap, I didn't know there were all those sounds in there!!!"
So it's all relative, innit?
So it's all relative, innit?
evman140
Hearing things...
Wonderful topic! Being 20 yo and an audiophile makes this really interesting.
When I was in HS I cared a lot about sound, and my equipment. One friend also cared and listened very carefully when I would explain sound. We always enjoyed talking about it.
Close friends understand I am an audiophile but still choose not to take my advice about reaching higher in terms of equipment and recordings. They see/hear my equipment and think quality sound is just way too far out of reach. I remember the first time a friend told me about the YouTube ripping stuff. I literally couldn't believe what had come out of his mouth. My friends know better, but just don't care.
More on the subject of equipment... You would think in this world of Beats, Skullcandies, Bose, Urbanears and the rest of the fashionable "hi-perf" headphone world there would be a want for better quality downloads, but still no.
When I was in HS I cared a lot about sound, and my equipment. One friend also cared and listened very carefully when I would explain sound. We always enjoyed talking about it.
Close friends understand I am an audiophile but still choose not to take my advice about reaching higher in terms of equipment and recordings. They see/hear my equipment and think quality sound is just way too far out of reach. I remember the first time a friend told me about the YouTube ripping stuff. I literally couldn't believe what had come out of his mouth. My friends know better, but just don't care.
More on the subject of equipment... You would think in this world of Beats, Skullcandies, Bose, Urbanears and the rest of the fashionable "hi-perf" headphone world there would be a want for better quality downloads, but still no.
ledzep1968
Budding Audiophile
All four of those brands you just mentioned are awful. I tried some Beats one time, they were just awful. Everything was isolated and flat.....
1TUFSS
Thread Killer
^ what he said. Beats are just a marketing exercise.
I'm just about the only person I know with a good set-up. All my friends come around to my place just to hear their music - mind you, we don't bother with shitty youtube rips either - on my system. They can tell the difference, but they're usually too busy pissing money away on their girlfriends to ever think of building something decent.
I'm just about the only person I know with a good set-up. All my friends come around to my place just to hear their music - mind you, we don't bother with shitty youtube rips either - on my system. They can tell the difference, but they're usually too busy pissing money away on their girlfriends to ever think of building something decent.
barkerd
Super Member
Had a bit of a gestalt over the weekend (family day up her in the great white north) and when I was up north snapping pics with my Iphone a thought occurred to me : what is a guy who used to have his own darkroom, still today has a full on SLR with lenses ....doing snapping pics with an iphone? ..... a little ashamed of myself since I started this thread : because I am accepting convenience over quality ..... but then I thought : you know what : there are times when the image IS what I am after (and I lug along the full kit) ....but there are times when the memory is all I'm after and the convenience of the phone speaks to me ...... so as an analogy to audiophile level sound vs compressed mass-market stuff I kind of look at it differently ....with one caveat : I DO know what good sound is just as I DO know what good photography is ....but I have to admit that there are times when (as in photography / the memory being the thing) there are times when the music is in the passenger seat : not driving the car...... I do however , still hold that if you say mp3/ compressed / etc is good enough : it isnt REALLY good enough unless you have been made aware of the experience of what it is like when it is better and you STILL choose compressed : otherwise it is mere ignorance speaking .......if you have been versed in and have had the pleasure of a fine vintage and still choose the hooch : more power to you
bluesky
Lunatic Member
It's a 'new sound' for a 'new generation'. I really don't think the younger generation care (not all), in the least, about sound quality, or musical quality. It's the hard core New digital generation now. Every time one of those rap junkies, or goo goo ga ga whatevers, pulls up next to me in my car... Just the beat heavily influenced with SUB woofers. Boom Boom Boom Boom heavily distorted (hope they have hearing protection! They will regret that one). That's what they enjoy. I think. I'm not sure. I really don't understand what they are into, sound wise or musical wise. I can deal with punk, I do understand it and kinda like it myself! But seriously...a few bar chords, bands invented by music companies for profit and telling you what you will buy and enjoy, people singing like it's the early 50s, 'trying to sing beautifully...la la de da. goo goo ga ga music. goo goo ga ga I want my mommie. There just isn't anything there. Maybe I miss understood the question.
Digital music over Ipods and stick em in your ears headphones. Hey, cool, every generation needs thier own 'thing'. But seriously folks..I don't really quite understand.
Somewhere along the line, something got really mixed up and went totally south. And the younger generation Really enjoys it!!! That's the mindblower!!
And 'they', the musicians, the musical business, had such great music to build on! Learn from the masters and build on it. No. They went back to the early 50s. It sounds like Connie Francis music to me. Not that there is anything wrong with Connie Francis!
But it's all cool. Just don't play it around me. Please. I just can't handle it. I sound like my father!! haha. There is just nothing there. It's like a blank canvas without paint. but maybe that's what it's all about...blankless. I have absolutely no idea...rock on.
Maybe I'm the only person that thinks this way. There is just 'nothing' there, nothing new, no message, no artistic value, nothing. I'm tired of the old rock, it's cool, it's my generations music, but there's just nothing to replace it. It's a real problem for me. So I went all the way back to 1925 Delta blues and Brazilian Jazz. Just trying to keep it real. It's a new world I guess.
BOTTOM LINE: If they want Ipod and You Tube music...give it to em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If that's what they enjoy and that is what makes em happy...go for it. 'It's thier turn'.
Digital music over Ipods and stick em in your ears headphones. Hey, cool, every generation needs thier own 'thing'. But seriously folks..I don't really quite understand.
Somewhere along the line, something got really mixed up and went totally south. And the younger generation Really enjoys it!!! That's the mindblower!!
And 'they', the musicians, the musical business, had such great music to build on! Learn from the masters and build on it. No. They went back to the early 50s. It sounds like Connie Francis music to me. Not that there is anything wrong with Connie Francis!
But it's all cool. Just don't play it around me. Please. I just can't handle it. I sound like my father!! haha. There is just nothing there. It's like a blank canvas without paint. but maybe that's what it's all about...blankless. I have absolutely no idea...rock on.
Maybe I'm the only person that thinks this way. There is just 'nothing' there, nothing new, no message, no artistic value, nothing. I'm tired of the old rock, it's cool, it's my generations music, but there's just nothing to replace it. It's a real problem for me. So I went all the way back to 1925 Delta blues and Brazilian Jazz. Just trying to keep it real. It's a new world I guess.
BOTTOM LINE: If they want Ipod and You Tube music...give it to em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If that's what they enjoy and that is what makes em happy...go for it. 'It's thier turn'.
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