braminator
Member
Just curious to why the protection lights come on at certain volumes. Is the speaker causing it or does the amp not have enough power to drive the speaker?:scratch2:
What causes an amp to clip?
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braminator
Member
Ha ha and thanks for that. The volume is louder then I could stand in the room. I was looking for the causes as this is my 1st Mac and I have never seen that before as the other amps that I have had in the past, and they didn't have warning lights to show clipping. I would of never noticed before except for the lights.
I did however have an amp that would shut down for several seconds if the volume was pushed to high levels.
But what are the causes?
I did however have an amp that would shut down for several seconds if the volume was pushed to high levels.
But what are the causes?
braminator
Member
So my MA6850 with 150 watts is running out of steam and not the speakers causing it?
If the power guard lights aren't blinking at your normal listening volume, I wouldn't worry about it.
braminator
Member
They never blink at levels that I listen to for any length if time. According to the meters on the front, they are pushing past the 150watt mark when they do finally blink. With music that is not so bass heavy I have seen the meters go to 300 watts and slightly past before the lights flash. When I push it to a louder volume, again more then you can stand in the room for any length of time they blink only on heavier notes.
Your amp is the power source and the speakers are the load. Some speakers produce more volume for a given amount of power; others, less. A speaker is a motor that moves air. As you turn the volume up, your speakers move more and more air until the amp reaches the limit of power it can produce. You're there when the pg lamps come on.
Murray
Murray
braminator
Member
Since I was just checking the volume this is not a concern. I never listen to it that loud and I could never stay in the room anyway. I was just trying to understand it. So if this were not a Mac what would happen with an amp clipping?
braminator.......I am assuming you are speaking of a McIntosh amplifier with the Power Guard circuit. Those lights flashing are not an indicator that the amplifier is clipping. In fact, you can not clip a McIntosh amplifier with Power Guard. What the lights are telling you is that the Power Guard circuit is actively attenuating the input voltage so that the output voltage remains unclipped within a maximum of 1% THD. This is the whole purpose of the McIntosh Power Guard circuit, to protect your speakers from clipped output signals. Unless the output comparitor sees 1% THD, the Power Guard circuit is sitting idle, and in no way affects the audio signal, or the amplifiers output.
Now, to answer you question, "What causes an amp to clip". All audio wave forms have very specific shapes. Once an amplifier's output exceeds the limits of its distortion rating the audio wave forms begin to be misshaped, and in fact can literally have the top of the wave forms chopped off, hence the term clipped. This is something you never want to allow an amplifier to do because the clipped wave forms and associated distortion destroys tweeters, and sometimes mid range drivers, faster than you can reach for the volume control. Just because an amplifier is rated for a specific output power at a certain distortion level does not mean that amplifier can not output considerably higher voltage. As an example, a 100 watt amplifier with a distortion rating of .1% THD at its rated output can easily put out 300 watts, but the distortion levels will far in exceed the .1% advertised rating at 100 watts, and the clipped audio wave forms will have long since fried the tweeters of any speakers connected.
Hope this helps you understand a clipped audio signal, and its dangers.
Now, to answer you question, "What causes an amp to clip". All audio wave forms have very specific shapes. Once an amplifier's output exceeds the limits of its distortion rating the audio wave forms begin to be misshaped, and in fact can literally have the top of the wave forms chopped off, hence the term clipped. This is something you never want to allow an amplifier to do because the clipped wave forms and associated distortion destroys tweeters, and sometimes mid range drivers, faster than you can reach for the volume control. Just because an amplifier is rated for a specific output power at a certain distortion level does not mean that amplifier can not output considerably higher voltage. As an example, a 100 watt amplifier with a distortion rating of .1% THD at its rated output can easily put out 300 watts, but the distortion levels will far in exceed the .1% advertised rating at 100 watts, and the clipped audio wave forms will have long since fried the tweeters of any speakers connected.
Hope this helps you understand a clipped audio signal, and its dangers.
Jon_Logan
Addicted Member
"What is Clipping?"
It's when the tube/transistor runs out of power supply voltage (basically). If your amplifier is putting a large waveform (voltage) across your load (speaker), it's putting out some power. When there is not enough voltage available to increase the waveform's size, the power supply has no higher voltage, clipping will occur. The flat tops of the clipping waveform is basically the voltage level from the DC power supply (minus the saturation voltage of the output transistors).
An amp can clip into a load, or unloaded.
It's when the tube/transistor runs out of power supply voltage (basically). If your amplifier is putting a large waveform (voltage) across your load (speaker), it's putting out some power. When there is not enough voltage available to increase the waveform's size, the power supply has no higher voltage, clipping will occur. The flat tops of the clipping waveform is basically the voltage level from the DC power supply (minus the saturation voltage of the output transistors).
An amp can clip into a load, or unloaded.
bystander
Active Member
question for jdandy again... so if I get my MC 2200 and/or MC 2205 with Power Guard really cranking and the red lights start to flash, there is no danger of clipping?
not intending to hijack a thread here, but this is what prompted me to explore bridging each amp to mono and have each amp drive its separate channel (with the idea that I would be doubling the power)... because when I use one amp in stereo, sometimes when I get real loud the power guard lights begin to flash... but am I understanding that this does not pose a danger, either to the amp or the speakers?
not intending to hijack a thread here, but this is what prompted me to explore bridging each amp to mono and have each amp drive its separate channel (with the idea that I would be doubling the power)... because when I use one amp in stereo, sometimes when I get real loud the power guard lights begin to flash... but am I understanding that this does not pose a danger, either to the amp or the speakers?
braminator.......There is no danger of clipping a McIntosh amplifier with Power Guard. When the Power Guard lights begin to flash it is telling you that input voltage is being reduced to keep output power under 1% THD. It is one of the many great benefits of owning McIntosh power amplifiers.
bystander
Active Member
okay jdandy, so just to confirm... when the meters on my MC 2205 are dancing to the right, and the red power guard lights start to flash, I am not putting the amp or speakers at risk?
Is there any danger when the red lights are flashing for a prolonged period of time? (other than to my hearing!) or are the amp and speakers fully protected?
Is there any danger when the red lights are flashing for a prolonged period of time? (other than to my hearing!) or are the amp and speakers fully protected?
wajobu
Boing Boom Tschak
This might help: http://www.roger-russell.com/mcintosh2.htm#powerguard
The Power Guard circuitry is doing its job to protect your amp and speakers (not your ears :nerd: ). That said (and since I'm not one to push the equipment REAL hard), if I found that my Power Guard lights spent a great deal of time flashing red, I might either look into a more powerful amp or more efficient speakers.
The Power Guard circuitry is doing its job to protect your amp and speakers (not your ears :nerd: ). That said (and since I'm not one to push the equipment REAL hard), if I found that my Power Guard lights spent a great deal of time flashing red, I might either look into a more powerful amp or more efficient speakers.
Victor
Super Member
Your speakers are not at risk of damage from the amp clipping, which is a very common cause of speaker damage. But you could still damage the speakers by over powering them. If you give any speaker enough power it will be damaged.
The amp is not at any risk when the power guard lights are on.
bystander.......Victor hit the nail on the head. Even though Power Guard is keeping the output of your amplifer under 1% THD at full rated output, that full rated output could be more power than your speakers can handle. Some speakers can handle high power on an instantaneous basis, but long term continuous high power can heat up voice coils beyond safe operating ranges, as well as crossover components.
After all these questions I just have to ask, do you actually crank your system that hard for long periods of time, or just kick it in the butt from time to time?
After all these questions I just have to ask, do you actually crank your system that hard for long periods of time, or just kick it in the butt from time to time?
bystander
Active Member
jdandy and all, thanks for all the insights... here's the story.
I've been collecting old solid state Mac amps over the years, and play around with various combos from time to time.
I have a pair of bi-amped Bozak Concert Grands that I originally ran with an MC 2300 on the bottom end and the MC 2200 on the top end. To balance things out, I'd run the 2300 with the gains at 12 oclock straight up, and the 2200 with the gains at about 3 oclock. No, I don't run it at crazy volumes all the times, but sometimes I just want to listen to a particular song and just step back and let it wash over me... hey they call them CONCERT Grands!
Enter the MC 2205. I thought a more balanced approach would be better, so I put the 2205 on the bottom end and the 2200 still on top. Well, I found the overall sound to be lacking, and that I'd have to run both amps at about 4 oclock (with 5 oclock being the max), which would cause the red power guard lights to flash but still not reach the overall concert power of the 2300/2200 combo.
That's when I had the idea to bridge the 2200 and 2205 to mono and dedicate one to the top right channel and the other to the top left channel, with the 2300 back on the bottom end... the thought was I would be doubling my power and putting 400 watts to each side on the top end which would be more than enough. Unfortunately, per the lessons in my other recent posting, this will not work out as the resulting split from 8 ohms to 4 ohms would bring each amp back to the original 200 watts anyway.
So, unless I come across another 2300 for next to nothing (which is highly unlikely), it looks like I'm going back to the original setup of the 2300 on the bottom and either the 2200 or 2205 on top.
Thanks everyone...
I've been collecting old solid state Mac amps over the years, and play around with various combos from time to time.
I have a pair of bi-amped Bozak Concert Grands that I originally ran with an MC 2300 on the bottom end and the MC 2200 on the top end. To balance things out, I'd run the 2300 with the gains at 12 oclock straight up, and the 2200 with the gains at about 3 oclock. No, I don't run it at crazy volumes all the times, but sometimes I just want to listen to a particular song and just step back and let it wash over me... hey they call them CONCERT Grands!
Enter the MC 2205. I thought a more balanced approach would be better, so I put the 2205 on the bottom end and the 2200 still on top. Well, I found the overall sound to be lacking, and that I'd have to run both amps at about 4 oclock (with 5 oclock being the max), which would cause the red power guard lights to flash but still not reach the overall concert power of the 2300/2200 combo.
That's when I had the idea to bridge the 2200 and 2205 to mono and dedicate one to the top right channel and the other to the top left channel, with the 2300 back on the bottom end... the thought was I would be doubling my power and putting 400 watts to each side on the top end which would be more than enough. Unfortunately, per the lessons in my other recent posting, this will not work out as the resulting split from 8 ohms to 4 ohms would bring each amp back to the original 200 watts anyway.
So, unless I come across another 2300 for next to nothing (which is highly unlikely), it looks like I'm going back to the original setup of the 2300 on the bottom and either the 2200 or 2205 on top.
Thanks everyone...
