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What if....VPI Classic vs Yamaha GT-2000

I'm home from work now. jblnut, the GT 2000 is f*cking magnificent machine. Honestly, I don't think that even the Yamaha engineers realised just how great a turntable they made. It is a stonker of a turntable. That's as stock. If you manage to isolate it correctly(which doesn't mean a 400lb stand or squash balls. Proper isolation) it turns from Clark Kent into Superman. The wonderful creation turns into something that has to be heard to be believed.

The poor pitiable few who have been following my stark raving mad postings on isolating the GT 2000 would know that I have gone to heroic lengths to isolate this incredible turntable. Just this week I received my grade 10 19mm Silicon Nitride balls for the ball and cup element of my isolation stand and I'm reveling in the difference they've made. I love the results I'm getting and I love this turntable. It's so f*cking good sounding on this isolation stand :yes: :thmbsp:

I love playing my records at the moment. Each one is an event. It's not just listening to music; it's being present at a performance. :banana:
 
theophile said:
Just this week I received my grade 10 19mm Silicon Nitride balls for the ball and cup element of my isolation stand and I'm reveling in the difference they've made.
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Extreme stuff! I'm still rather fond of tungsten carbide ball bearings in this application.
 
Mark B said:
Extreme stuff! I'm still rather fond of tungsten carbide ball bearings in this application.
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From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_nitride

Silicon nitride bearings are both full ceramic bearings and ceramic hybrid bearings with balls in ceramics and races in steel. Silicon nitride ceramics have good shock resistance compared to other ceramics. Therefore, ball bearings made of silicon nitride ceramic are used in performance bearings. A representative example is use of silicon nitride bearings in the main engines of the NASA's Space Shuttle.[18][19]

Since silicon nitride ball bearings are harder than metal, this reduces contact with the bearing track. This results in 80% less friction, 3 to 10 times longer lifetime, 80% higher speed, 60% less weight, the ability to operate with lubrication starvation, higher corrosion resistance and higher operation temperature, as compared to traditional metal bearings.[17] Silicon nitride balls weigh 79% less than tungsten carbide balls. Silicon nitride ball bearings can be found in high end automotive bearings, industrial bearings, wind turbines, motorsports, bicycles, rollerblades and skateboards. Silicon nitride bearings are especially useful in applications where corrosion, electric or magnetic fields prohibit the use of metals. For example, in tidal flow meters, where seawater attack is a problem, or in electric field seekers.[10]

Si3N4 was first demonstrated as a superior bearing in 1972 but did not reach production until nearly 1990 because of challenges associated with reducing the cost. Since 1990, the cost has been reduced substantially as production volume has increased. Although Si
3N
4 bearings are still 2–5 times more expensive than the best steel bearings, their superior performance and life are justifying rapid adoption. Around 15–20 million Si
3N
4 bearing balls were produced in the U.S. in 1996 for machine tools and many other applications. Growth is estimated at 40% per year, but could be even higher if ceramic bearings are selected for consumer applications such as in-line skates and computer disk drives.[17]
 
twiiii said:
Yamaha may once upon a time known how to make electronics, but they never conquered anything that had a motor in it. that's DVD players, CD Players, cassette record/players and turntables. They never met specs and all of them failed. We sold a 10 tons of the stuff and threw twenty tons in the trash can over the 30 years we handled the line. I'll take Pioneer or Technics ,(Teac or Tascam) any time and only the Sp-10 MK II or III really impressed me.
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Interesting. :scratch2:

In my experience of Japanese hi-fi equipment, I have always found Yamaha to be the most reliable, both in terms of electronics and mechanics. I think the most arduous repair I've ever had to make on any piece of Yamaha kit is replacing the belt on a TC-800GL cassette deck!

As to the OP - buy a GT2000 and compare it to your VPI. Compare the two, keep the one you prefer and sell the other. Both are good items and will find a new home without much trouble.
 
jblnut said:
So, I find myself at a crossroads....

I am 2 years into ownership of a beautiful VPI Classic and for a variety of reasons, I find myself listening to the PX-2 far more. There's nothing really wrong with the VPI and it's a really nice table, but I guess it just doesn't push my buttons if you know what I mean. I find myself frequently looking at HiFiDo and thinking..."hmm...I could sell the VPI and basically trade even-up for a GT-2000". I've always been attracted to the unobtanium (in the US) GT2K and prices seem to be pretty stable at the moment. It looks every bit as cool (maybe even more) than the VPI and by all accounts it's a stellar performer.

My head (logic) says keep the VPI. It will last forever and it's a great performer.

My heart (emotion) says get the Yamaha. They'll never make anything like that again and it may well out perform the VPI. But if it breaks (not likely I know)...I'd be SOL.

I'd like to get any thoughts you're willing to share on this. I'm sure that no one has heard both side by side, but any informed opinions are welcome.

The cart used is an AT OC9/II and the pre is a Pass Labs Xono.

jblnut
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I can understand the allure of the Yamaha table, for turntable really do have an emotional appeal to us vinyl nuts. Who can't look at an LP 12, a Teres, Microseiki, Oracle, Basis, or any other table and not have an emotional reaction? Not any of us if you are passionate about vinyl. So i get the idea that the GT 2000 pushes your buttons, and that is cool.

But is it really better for you? No way of knowing for sure without hearing one, or better yet living with one. You pay your money and take your chances. Like someone else said, buy it and keep the one you like the best. Or better yet keep both! I have a Galibier Audio Serac and a Thorens TD 124. They sound different enough that I have a choice in musical presentation that I like, and yet both sound great. There are times I prefer one over the other, but usually the Serac is the go to table for critical listening and the 124 for more casual stuff.

I also agree that while the OC 9 II is a great value in a cartridge, you could do better for your VPI. If you want something with a bit more emotional appeal perhaps a Shelter or Miyabi would fit the bill.....

Regards
Mister Pig
 
With my efforts toward isolating the GT, I've concluded that the motor and bearing of the GT must be very quiet. The reason I've assumed this conclusion is the manner in which the performance has leaped after optimising and fine tuning the isolation. Surely if the motor/bearing, which are essentially tied to the platter spindle as part of the direct drive operating principle, is the weak link in the noise seen by the stylus; then no amount of further isolation would prove to be of any advantage. The predominating overriding limitation being tied into the integral design would never be able to be sidestepped(as indeed it cannot with the direct drive principle). Hence as VPI have illustrated with their latest turntable the VPI Classic Direct, the choice of motor and motor electronics is crucial to the degree of performance of this turntable operating principle.

I've had some on another site say that acoustic interference is of greater concern than seismic interference. Yes acoustic interference, if that is problematic needs to be addressed, at the design stage and in the operating environment. It is not the only factor however. The information embedded in the wall of the groove is minute. I have seen it said that the smaller modulations are dimensionally equivalent to the wavelengths of light. There are many industries which deal in quantifying information down and below those dimensions. Those industries all require isolation platforms upon which to place their sensitive instruments. Those industries are not dealing with acoustic noise, rather they are isolating from seismic vibration which limits the instruments' ability to resolve information down at the smallest dimensions. In other words: imperceptible shaking is rendering fine information unreadable by the sensitive instruments.

Excellent turntables find themselves in the same boat. The situation is no different. If the motor is quiet enough, the seismic pollution becomes the limiting factor and the result can be heard if the other components are up to conveying fine enough detail themselves. Again in other words, this would not be the limiting factor in a compromised system. The limitations of each individual component become paramount as to whether the seismic environment would be perceptible or the limitation, as it does when using a 10x microscope as compared to an electron scanning microscope. With a 10x microscope it is neither here nor there that one should seismically isolate the instrument. With an ESM it is imperative that one has a seismic isolation platform in place otherwise no resolution below a definable dimension will be resolvable.

Food for thought gentlemen: What is limiting the resolution of your turntable system? Acoustic or seismic pollution?
 
You can perform a simple experiment: lower the tonearm on a stationary disc on the table in question.
Listen to the seismic or whatever noise through a pair of headphones.
Now play a source loudly in the same space but with whatever provision to listen far enough away top not hear the source noise (900 Hz headphones come to mind) generated on the turntable. What is audible now is "seismic" + acoustic feedback.
The results would be quantifiable and repeatable.
I would be interested to hear of the results on your GT2000 with and without isolation.
Sorry, but I'm such an empiricist!

EDIT: start with arm up. My assumption is that any noise with it up will be hum and the white noise of your electronics.
If you think the cart picks up seismic vibration you could compare this result with and without your isolation devices to see if any noise (if seismic IS isolated by devices) is picked up by the signal generator when it is not in compression and acting against a surface like an LP
 
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pfcs49 said:
You can perform a simple experiment: lower the tonearm on a stationary disc on the table in question.
Listen to the seismic or whatever noise through a pair of headphones.
Now play a source loudly in the same space but with whatever provision to listen far enough away top not hear the source noise (900 Hz headphones come to mind) generated on the turntable. What is audible now is "seismic" + acoustic feedback.
The results would be quantifiable and repeatable.
I would be interested to hear of the results on your GT2000 with and without isolation.
Sorry, but I'm such an empiricist!

EDIT: start with arm up. My assumption is that any noise with it up will be hum and the white noise of your electronics.
If you think the cart picks up seismic vibration you could compare this result with and without your isolation devices to see if any noise (if seismic IS isolated by devices) is picked up by the signal generator when it is not in compression and acting against a surface like an LP
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Not interested. You can do it for me.
 
Do me favor guys and keep this on topic. AK has enough endless debates as is and this is not the place for yet another "I heard it - No you didn't" circle jerk.

Many thanks...

Jblnut
 
As it would happen, I picked up a VPI Classic about a little over a week ago, and as I sold my best cartridge I had them mount my second best, an OC9/ii.

All in all I'd say its a dramatic improvement over the Clearaudio Concept I had before, but as Mr. Pig points out there are probably much better cartridge matches for the Classic. Personally I'm still blown away by the table itself, but I know there's room left for improvement, which is awesome in of itself.

So bottom line, as a guy who happens to have the same rig you do, I'd go head over heart on this one, and maybe just change the cartridge or phono stage to find something that brings out a little more overall magic in your system. And then enjoy a long life of never having to worry about replacing capacitors, hunting for spare parts on ebay, etc.
 
Do not ever perceive the comments about the GT 2000 to be an attack on the VPI Classic. Ever since the introduction of the first Classic model, this turntable has been praised as a moderately priced true classic turntable not only in name, but in genuine performance also. It immediately garnered reviews which stated that despite its modest price it belonged in the top echelon of turntables.

The Classic series have been somewhat of a departure by Harry Weisfeld from his previous formula for upper level turntables, which have either incorporated a sprung suspension or an outboard motor pod or both. I am under the impression that Harry was inspired by the design and performance of the better Empire turntables when he introduced the Classic series.

I have never heard a VPI Classic turntable. I have listened to the GT 2000 since I got mine in 2008. AK member Ken Wood Jr is a VPI dealer who owns a Classic 2 and also a GT 2000 as well as other Japanese ToTL direct drives. I know that the GT 2000 is a stupendous performer(much better than that when isolated). Ken had testified that the GT 2000 holds its own with the Classic 2.(http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=266) Given that we both own the GT 2000 that tells me that the Classic 2 is an awesome turntable. I must admit that it was somewhat gratifying to hear from a party who was able to compare a GT 2000 to a current top-flight turntable, that the 3 decades old GT was not humbled by that comparison but was indeed comparable. Kudos to Ken Wood Jr also. As a VPI dealer he has nothing to gain by making the comparison, but he was honest enough to declare just how good the GT 2000 was on a public forum. Well done Ken.

The interesting thing for me was how good Ken has stated the arm on the GT 2000 to be. Ken has listed his system as follows:

"I got the Kontrapunkt B mounted, that's feeding my BAT VKP10se, and that balanced out to an Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 line stage, I'm going balanced out of the line stage to an AR VT100, and that drives a pair of B&W 803d's. The GT-2000 is absolutely flagship material."

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/103/1034042.html

So, from a 3 decade plus turntable/arm to merit comparison without diminishment to currently rated top-flight turntable and the Graham 2.2 arm is quite some compliment to the design of the GT 2000. I don't see one reason why jblnut should be deterred from buying either.
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. I discussed this with my better half and it looks like I'll be looking/waiting for the GT-2000L model because of the slightly more WAF friendly color of the wood base.

The hunt begins....wish me luck

Jblnut
 
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jblnut said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. I discussed this with by better half and it looks like I'll be looking/waiting for the GT-2000L model because of the slightly more WAF friendly color of the wood base.

The hunt begins....wish me luck

Jblnut
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Or, you could do what this fellow in Russia did: Get a GT 2000 have it re-veneered and laquered. Why, just for a little 'bling', he got some sparkely stuff put on the buttons. :thmbsp:

http://www.avito.ru/moskva/audio_i_video/yamaha_gt-2000_exclusive_342082099

838143053.jpg


838143272.jpg
 
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jblnut said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. I discussed this with my better half and it looks like I'll be looking/waiting for the GT-2000L model because of the slightly more WAF friendly color of the wood base.

The hunt begins....wish me luck

Jblnut
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If you can't find a GT-2000 for sale in the US, consider buying one out of Japan. I bought mine from HiFiDo.

The table was extremely well packed and shipped in 2 very large boxes (double boxed). Even with the high shipping cost I found it to be less expensive than GT-2000's sold by US based sellers.

Best of luck!
 
Mark B said:
If you can't find a GT-2000 for sale in the US, consider buying one out of Japan. I bought mine from HiFiDo.

The table was extremely well packed and shipped in 2 very large boxes (double boxed). Even with the high shipping cost I found it to be less expensive than GT-2000's sold by US based sellers.

Best of luck!
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That's how I got mine also. Highly recommended. :yes: :thmbsp:
 
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