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What's your "go to song" to test bass in your rig?

silviajuliet said:
Well, maybe you can be rigth if your full range passive speakers has a low frequency crossover in its woofers but normally woofer speaker crossover frequency is a roun 300hz to 550hz, so that woofer develops really high IMD and you can hear it even that you could be not aware of it.

What happens when you integrates subs to those full range speakers ( my ADS L2030 speakers goes down to 16hz, even that I use it with a pair of well blended subwoofers. ) through a low and high pass crossover filters at around 80hz frequency? it happens that for your very first time in your life you will listen those speakers really shinyn due that the IMD in the speaker woofers goes really down. It's not the same for those speakers woofers been reproducing at the same time bass frequency as low of 20hz-30hz along frequencies over 200hz to 500hz and this facts develops that high IMD that when you ake out from those speaker woofers the frequencies below 80hz suddenly " ligth on " ! !

The main target when we integrate subs in our system with passive speakers is to put speaker woofers IMD at MINIMUM and this is the main target with additional benefits that now the bass range is handled by a dedicated drivers that comes with dedicated amps designed to fulfill the subs woofer needs. IMD goes lower, quality bass range reproduction improves a lot ( yo can have it with any and I mean any amp mated with those passive speakers. ), now you have true low bass with definition/no overhang and with high transparency in that frequency range so elusive. In the other side not only your speakers will improve his quality reproduction per sé but the main amp will works with higher headroom and lower distortion due that is operating from 80hz and up. Many many advantages with subs that you can't achieve with out it no matters what. Only good news for the MUSIC enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
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Well... I'm just going on my own personal experience... having heard a system (a very expensive one) that had speakers that sounded to me pretty much perfect in all ranges, including bass. I heard it with a subwoofer and though the range was extended a bit, I didn't feel like I enjoyed the overall effect as much as without. It just depends on what you're preferences are... If you're really adamant that you need to have bass that goes all the way down to 20 hz, then you'll probably be wanting a sub-woofer. Some folks will be happy with speakers that go down nearly, but not quite that far and some will be happy with a system that doesn't dip down nearly that far. I like deep, strong, accurate bass, but I don't require something that goes all the way to 20 hz.
 
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I tried to design my subs to be as seamless as possible with the rest of the system. You really can't tell they are on, until you turn them off. Then, it's like part of the music is missing or lesser sounding. Room is not as full sounding. More pee-shooter. The subs really helps imaging of the midrange, for some odd reason.

I used the same speakers in my DIY subs, as those in the main speakers. JBL 136A. DIY crossovers and driven with an Anthem amp. :)
 
RunOutGroove said:
Well... I'm just going on my own personal experience... having heard a system (a very expensive one) that had speakers that sounded to me pretty much perfect in all ranges, including bass. I heard it with a subwoofer and though the range was extended a bit, I didn't feel like I enjoyed the overall effect as much as without.
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I'm with you on this. I have a big sub but I leave it off most of the time for the same reason.
 
I listen to various music and the need for a subwoofer is essential(for me at least). There are some pro and con with using a sub and just running full range. It depends on a lot of factors.

Subwoofer can be very tricky to integrate if you are not aware what you are expecting. We need to know what type of music are we playing, at what level, and what size room. The room to me is the most important factor since this where it is where you will get your "sound", treated and untreated. When you add a sub, it is going to be easier to move around and hear the differences then the full range. Using software like REW can be a great tool to reference what are you looking at as term of room response. I have REW and Smaart but use the second one most often.

I have run my sub various settings with different type of sub for as long as I can remember and honestly, have the right tools and knowledge makes the task easier. Use it as a reference to your ears since this is the final resort.
 
silviajuliet said:
I agree that each one of us preferences are the ones in command. The reqeriment of those elusive 20hz has reasons and not only if you like to listen organ scores but halls breath at very low frequency range and is part of the listening image/depth.




That could be if the subs are integrated only as a bass reinforcement with the low pass filter crossover at 30hz-40hz but with no high-pass filter crossover in the main speakers. If the full range main speakers are working in full range fashion ( no high-pass filter. ) along the subs then you are rigth.

I already said it: main target to integrate subs in any system using passive main speakers is to put at minimum the IMD that is developed at high level by the wooffers that when are reproducing say 30hz-40hz frequencies have long excursion and vibrates according it and at the same time thos woofers must reproduce higher frequencies and it's precisely these what puts IMD at really high levels that get dirty what we are listen it. Is this high IMD what we have to improve and the only way to do it is through the use of a high-pass filter crossover in the main full range speakers along the integration of subs with a low-pass filter at around not 30-40 hz but 80hz.

So the use of subwoofers main/first target is not the " bass " but that terrible IMD developed by the full range speakers. These facts are not commanded for what are my preferences but a sure and accurate way to improve the quality level performance levels in any room/system using passive main speakers.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
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Well... the speakers that I was listening to on this system that I was referring to were very expensive, open baffle speakers. First of all, though they don't go down to 20 hz, they still see to go pretty low (and are probably pretty flat to that level), so there isn't much that you're missing below that (a little though, to be sure). Secondly, since they're open baffle, they have a kind of unique very open character to the imaging/soundscape. The whole idea of filtering the bass out of main speakers I know is kind of controversial in the first place (a lot of expert audio folks aren't fans of the practice) and I think that with the speakers in question that are really designed to maximize bass (with dual 15" drivers), even if they aren't quite full range, that filtering the lows from these things would be a mistake. Not to mention the fact that the couple of integrated tube amps that my friend has are pretty minimalist designs and I doubt have low/high pass filters or stuff dedicated for subs on them.

I just felt that the sub was working against the super-open quality of the open baffle speakers and only adding a very little extra low-end... so on balance it wasn't worth the compromise to gain just a bit of extra lows. My friend who owns the system and is much more of a bass head than me (he's always talking about getting that LOW bass in his system) also agreed with me and decided to run everything without the sub. For me, it all depends on what the system is and how much bass you'd be giving up by running it without a sub. On my system for example, my little bookshelves can sound thin without the sub, so in that instance it makes sense to use one (I still don't filter anything though).
 
silviajuliet said:
The subs issue in a stereo home system using main passive speakers almost always is controversial till we can understand that main subject: HIGH IMD DEVELOPED BY THE MAIN SPEAKER WOOFERS ( it does not matters open woofers as your friend or at normal box speakers. It does not matters because those two 15" woofers by side in your friend system still develops that IMD twice source by side !. ).

Additional to that he uses tube electronics that it does not performs as can do it a good SS design. Why do you think that subwoofers NEVER are mated with tube amps? because just can't do a decent job down there. Just common sense.

I don't try to convince you about, this is not a play to see which member win and which member lost. It's only that exist different perspective on same subjects but to talk about subs we have to go deep on that developed IMD: here is the whole issue.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
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You're entitled to believe whatever you do about audio. I don't really have a horse in the race as the system in question isnt my own and don't even have many real philosophies about audio gear. I simply use my ears as a guide and to my ears, my friend's system was about the best that I've heard, had great sounding (punchy, low, with plenty of texture) bass and didn't seem to benefit (again to my ears) from using a subwoofer.

If there's one philosophy that I do hold to as far as audio goes though it's that one's enjoyment with it is a purely subjective thing. Since no system sounds exactly like live music (and may sound closer to live with one type of music, but less so with another) then all we really have to go on is the sound that we each most enjoy, which by its very nature is going to be a different thing for different people. I accept the fact that had YOU been in the same room as that system, that you may have preferred the sound with the sub hooked up... which would prove my point about the subjective nature of all of this.
 
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Like many posters I have more than one. Here's a couple more,
Pro Arte Sampler, Sample Surround Sound, Toccata and Fugue in D Minor.
Bass Mekanik V5.0
 
What if it's Hot Tuna?

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