Bill Haywood
Member
You are stuck with what you get unless you use a equalizer. The designer decides what he thinks sounds best and that’s it. I like the option to make changes. What do you guys think?
Why are they building Preamps without Bass & Treble controls?
- Thread starter Bill Haywood
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Some people want as little circuitry as necessary between the source and their ears. Designers meet that market by not including tone controls. The idea is that the amp functions as a 'straight wire with gain'. Any voicing occurs at the source and speaker. As well, the software has an impact on this. Eliminating one variable is considered an improvement by some.
Other designers appeal to both markets, tone controls, and no tone controls, by enabling the user to switch out the tone control circuitry from the signal path.
Some people prefer not to make changes to the voice of their system. You are not one of those people. You are not alone. And, more power to you.
I have a tube amp, without tone controls, and a solid-state amp, with tone controls, but which permits me to switch out the tone controls.
Other designers appeal to both markets, tone controls, and no tone controls, by enabling the user to switch out the tone control circuitry from the signal path.
Some people prefer not to make changes to the voice of their system. You are not one of those people. You are not alone. And, more power to you.
I have a tube amp, without tone controls, and a solid-state amp, with tone controls, but which permits me to switch out the tone controls.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
It's one of those things that, nowadays, you can eliminate, cut some cost, and claim a ticket to the high-end class.
There is nothing wrong with tone control. For purists, a defeat button can take them out of circuit if and when needed. But I will point out one case that I consider to be a notable exception. If you recall the Technics slimline rack-mounted slimline system, comprising of SU-9070 preamp, SE-9060 power amp, SH-9020 VU meter(!), SH-9010 5 band parametric equalizer and ST-9030 tuner (aka a fully equipped receiver in 4 separate pieces). The preamp was well equipped with three phono inputs and three tape loops but lacked tone controls, as there was a complete unit for that purpose.
There is nothing wrong with tone control. For purists, a defeat button can take them out of circuit if and when needed. But I will point out one case that I consider to be a notable exception. If you recall the Technics slimline rack-mounted slimline system, comprising of SU-9070 preamp, SE-9060 power amp, SH-9020 VU meter(!), SH-9010 5 band parametric equalizer and ST-9030 tuner (aka a fully equipped receiver in 4 separate pieces). The preamp was well equipped with three phono inputs and three tape loops but lacked tone controls, as there was a complete unit for that purpose.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Well its a lot easier to build a balanced pre-amp with out tone controls. I don't even think Accuphase builds a totally balanced EQ. There's are digital. A balanced pre-amp requires easily twice as many parts as a conventional pre-amp. I have never understood folks wanting a pre-amp with out tone controls. 99% of LP's need help. Oh there are a few direct to disc, that don't need help, and maybe a few Commands, Telarc, Reference recording, and Mobile FIDELITY, but others need help. Especially if you have an austere cartridge or one at the opposite end of the scale. As far as CD's are concerned. At least they are pretty consistent and why I won't even consider Deutch Gramophone anymore. Here again having an outstanding disc player/decoder really helps. Streaming is so compromised I can't get enthused about it. Once a month or so I'll try some thing new. I am not into current POP except for a little CW and R&B so most of the services just offer noise as far as I am concerned. But even with the classical sites I am having trouble with the mics they choose and where they place them. I don't want to be standing on the podium with a baton and the use of solo mics and sweeteners is just too prominent today. I don't like hearing spit sloshing around in people mouths as they sing. Same goes for solo instruments with mics attached to the bells. The only choices we have to calm things down a bit is tone controls, unless you want to add ambience to a stereo recording with your HT processor . I do that too, some times. Modern recordings have very little dynamic range in the pop venue, so I still keep my 3 BX. I can see the audiophiles shaking in their boots at the thought. Go to a live concert of any venue and get a sound level meter app for your iPhone 10X or Sansui and learn about live sound. Take away the amplification and just listen to acoustical instruments. You might learn something. You will find you do need tone controls. I prefer Graphic and 5 to 12 is. nice number. Then there are the guys with passive pre-amps with just a switch or two and a couple of pots. People think they sound great, if they only knew? Insert an L-pad to T-pad between your direct coupled amp and your loud speaker and listen to the difference, same deal. Yes more exaggerated as a speakers impedance isn't as constant, but you'll get the idea.
darkblue94
The Devil made me do it.
Some people know darned well what they're "missing" by eliminating tone controls and are perfectly happy without them. 
ducati_EL34
Addicted Member
I removed the tone controls from my preamp when I updated it.
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Bill Haywood
Member
I know what I like to hear and you guys too and I like the option of tone control for me. The guys that design this stuff are using 20,000 dollar speakers 5 to 10 thousand amps and have specially designed listening rooms. But it’s what they hear and like is the way they are set up. Got a old Dynaco Pat-4 modded by VanAlstine back in the 80’s and have a modern tube preamp without tone controls and my opinion which is like a butt everybody’s got one is that it sounds just as good but the main thing is I have control. Lesson learned and a expensive one at that..
Still at the mercy of the recording engineers' individual ideas of what something should sound like. No two are equal in abilities, hearing, talent - and that would even assume all studio conditions are exactly the same, which they are not, assuming recording technology remained static for decades, which it did not.
A million dollar system isn't going to change that.
Bill Haywood
Member
You are for sure right it is easier to build without the tone controls and cheaper too. But more expensive.
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
They have been making preamps without tone controls for over forty years. In the 90's many CD enthusiasts started going without a preamp entirely, using just a volume control, either on the source output, the amp input, or in a standalone 'passive preamp'. I guess I don't miss tone controls because I just got used to not having them. I used them very seldom when I did have them, and then only to turn obnoxious treble down. I miss a mono switch and a balance control more than I miss tone controls. I'm not 'against' them, and they certainly have their uses. Cheap equalizers can really veil the sound, but the positives outweigh the negatives for many. I don't argue against equalizers, but I will sometimes suggest to folks with good systems that they try theirs without their equalizer. Schitt makes a four-knob standalone tone control unit now, btw.
There is a $31 tube preamp that is all the rage now:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fx-audio-6j1-tube-preamp-a-31-wonder.848535/
Not as many manufacturers offer traditional separate preamps with a full complement of controls these days as they did before, but they're out there. AVA and Parasound, to name two. I've gone with a minimalist TVC (transformer volume control) and source switcher myself.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/transformer-volume-controls.649914/
Here's another AK'er who tried something similar.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...e-slagles-transformer-volume-controls.701044/
They really let you know "where the bear **** in the buckwheat", as my wife would say.
There is a $31 tube preamp that is all the rage now:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/fx-audio-6j1-tube-preamp-a-31-wonder.848535/
Not as many manufacturers offer traditional separate preamps with a full complement of controls these days as they did before, but they're out there. AVA and Parasound, to name two. I've gone with a minimalist TVC (transformer volume control) and source switcher myself.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/transformer-volume-controls.649914/
Here's another AK'er who tried something similar.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...e-slagles-transformer-volume-controls.701044/
They really let you know "where the bear **** in the buckwheat", as my wife would say.
Do the tone control guys adjust them for every song/album? 
Bill Haywood
Member
You are correct I usually pretty much leave my bass wide open but mainly I have to adjust my treble. Without the control my opinion some songs are not worth listening too. That’s the problem with my tube preamp no control and it is so frustrating. So I always go back to my trusty Dynaco. I know that a lot of the problem is guaility of recordings so that’s when you need the option.
Adcom has a new one with defeatable bass & treble https://www.adcom.com/product_gfp815.php
McIntosh has the same features on a couple of their tube models.
If a particular song is more enjoyable with them, then there is nothing wrong with using them. There is plenty of info on Dynaco tone control mods up to complete, defeatable, tone kits.
McIntosh has the same features on a couple of their tube models.
If a particular song is more enjoyable with them, then there is nothing wrong with using them. There is plenty of info on Dynaco tone control mods up to complete, defeatable, tone kits.
Bill Haywood
Member
Sound to all of us is different what you think sounds fantastic might not sound so good to other people.
Do the tone control guys adjust them for every song/album?
This one rarely changes his tone control settings from flat. But the alternative of doing without is far worse when they are needed.
In my view, nothing strikes me more "unaudiophile-like" than to not intervene when prudent to due so. Even more ironic is that is often the same type of individual who thinks nothing of spending countless time, money and energy devoted to "tweaks" in pursuit of that elusive 0.001% of improvement yet thinks it's better to passively endure a recording where something is obviously off than to avail himself of one of the most time-honored, basic tools of high fidelity for a real improvement.
May not be the perfect solution in every situation but it's certainly a heck of a lot better than doing nothing.
One man's opinion.
bbqjoe
Void where prohibited
My preamp doesn't have tone controls either.
I can use either itunes equalizer, or run streaming apps through the boom app if anything thing needs bumped up or dialed back.
Some recordings need help whether we like it or not.
No sense in forcing yourself to listen to something that isn't to your liking just because of trying to be a purist.
I can use either itunes equalizer, or run streaming apps through the boom app if anything thing needs bumped up or dialed back.
Some recordings need help whether we like it or not.
No sense in forcing yourself to listen to something that isn't to your liking just because of trying to be a purist.
It has nothing to do with cheaper and all to do with SQ and S/N ratio.
Every title,mastering and recording is different, are you going to adjust for every title you put on?
All systems and the rooms they're in are different also.
Sometimes people chase their tail around looking for what they perceive as perfect, but nothing is perfect.
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