Why re-cap speakers?
- Thread starter guest139
- Start date
Nixxuz
Super Member
I think the disconnect is when bench techs with an oscilloscope measure a sine wave with 2 different caps of the same value and conclude there is no difference. As said before; if something measures bad, but sounds good, you might be measuring the wrong thing, or in this case, the wrong way. That's my 2 cents.
Right the uF on a low end 3.3uF cap is the same as the 3.3uF high end cap... what’s different? (The materials used, and the way they can react to different drivers)
What folks are failing to understand is materials used can cause the driver to sound more accurate. The uF being the same is allowing the the crossover frequencies to be correct for the crossover point, but that does not mean the sound of a driver won’t change.
For example:
A 7uf cap is used for the HF crossover point in the L19s and the 4301. If you use a low end 7uf cap, the crossover point is still the same as If you used a nice cap. at 7uf the same the crossover is still 2500Hz, but what charges?
The tone, the actual sound... more clarity or less shrillness depend on what your doing. Is the crossover point still at 2500hz? Yep...
Folks seem to be confused about the crossover point at where the LF and HF merge to make a balanced sound. That has little to do with the warmth or the clearly of what caps can do.
Yes a low buck cap will keep the crossover frequency at the stated Hz as a top end cap, but it will 100% without a doubt sound different. Your crossover point can be dead on but the sound could be flat.
I have never once heard someone who has listened to better quality caps say “I don’t hear a difference” it’s usually the folks using low end caps or someone who has no experience at all and is talking our their ass... sorry just seems to be the case.
How about this...
Next time any of you feel like a re-cap, do one of 2 thing.
1. Loosen the purse and invest in some mid level caps...
2. If you buy low price caps, stay away from Dayton. Get Jantzen Cross caps, spend the $6.15 bucks on some 0.01uf AudioCap bypass caps. This will prove to you that a cap can change the sound.
Or go with the red AudioPhiler brand of caps, they are lower buck than the Daytons and actually do improve sound. They are more accurate in testing too. Yes I have used them, and have given a few members my spare caps from last builds.
Next, get a low buck cap tester... be exact don’t guess.
I’m all for running in parallel up to an exact value, I feel it allows for closer accuracy.
New Caps bring balance back to a speaker they are not a fix all, good caps will help with better sound. Low grad caps will work but may sound flat. Or lack “imaging”.
Nixxuz
Super Member
I've become a fan of Audyn caps recently as well, both the cheap red Q4 you can get on Amazon, and the slightly more expensive Cap Plus. I've also had a good experience with this little fellow;
I like the fact that it makes it easy to test a wide variety of stuff, including inductors.
rider33
Active Member
this I think is the crux of it and pretty much the history of audio. The empiricist relies on data, the romantic on impression and odds are, both of them are wrong at times. Impressions can be influenced by a lot of things including expectation, data is limited to what and how things are measured. It's sort of the Absolute Sound vs. Stereo Review thing, Harry picked up on things that Julian didn't hear, Sometimes Harry was hearing things that weren't quite the way he perceived them. Sound is complex, music is complex, human processing of both is even more complex. To assume we fully understand all of its dimensions is likely folly. The best approach is to listen with both your head and your heart, one without the other is not likely to lead you to the truth. Or, more simply, as Ellington put it, 'if it sounds good it is good'.
bigx5murf
Super Member
I always recap electrolytics in my speakers if they're over 20 years old, just for the pace of mind. Up till now, I was never sure if any perceived improvement was placebo or not.
Tonight I recapped my DCM TF600. Only the 15uf electrolytic on each crossover. This was the first time I'm positive there was a very noticeable improvement in vocal clarity.
Tonight I recapped my DCM TF600. Only the 15uf electrolytic on each crossover. This was the first time I'm positive there was a very noticeable improvement in vocal clarity.
I was initially a bit disappointed at the lack of drastic change in my KLH 6’s after I recapped them with Dayton poly’s. They sounded great beforehand and great after, but it was not an immediate upgrade. My Sansui SP2500’s were a different story. They sounded a bit muddy and cold with their old caps, and certain upper midrange frequencies would get distorted. The sound is definitely less congested now and the distortion is gone, but I still feel as though the highs are a bit weak. Might replace the electrolytics with some Poly’s and see if that doesn’t help.
Either way, I spent a few bucks in caps and a few minutes of basic soldering, and even if it was a sonically lateral move, I now know that these 40-50 year-old speakers will be good for another 40-50 years. Even if the crossovers are extremely complex (KEF 104/2, AR9, etc.), or punishingly difficult to get to (looking at you, original KLH 6's), you only ever have to do it once in your lifetime.
Either way, I spent a few bucks in caps and a few minutes of basic soldering, and even if it was a sonically lateral move, I now know that these 40-50 year-old speakers will be good for another 40-50 years. Even if the crossovers are extremely complex (KEF 104/2, AR9, etc.), or punishingly difficult to get to (looking at you, original KLH 6's), you only ever have to do it once in your lifetime.
Last edited:
Bill Murray
Active Member
I have just recapped with Dayton. First time I did this. Are Daytons junky ??Not trying to be an ass, but I have a few questions.
1. What does 30 years in the hobby have anything to do with anything? (Just poking ya)
2. What caps do you use? (Please don’t respond Dayton)
3. Have you ever recapped speakers yourself and noticed an upgrade in sound?
View attachment 1663912
You had mentioned a singe cap XO.. ^^ JBL L16s ^^ was a single cap, now they are at exact values.
View attachment 1663914 View attachment 1663915
I agree on some of your points but I think you are failing to see that it’s not the just “uF” values that can affect the sound of a driver. You may keep the crossover point the same with similar caps of equal value.
An example/question for you:
If a speaker has a 4.7uf cap for the high pass, what you are saying is if I were to put any old cap that is 4.7uf In and I would get the same sound stage as a top end high grade 4.7uf cap?
I agree most folks don’t test the original caps, some of us do. I do when it comes to JBL a lot of times the paper caps are a good 10-20% out of spec.
I also agree that lots of folks say they don’t notice a difference, then I see they used an equal grade cap as to what was already installed. You won’t notice a sonic upgrade unless you upgrade to a better cap.
1st question... Are you the real Bill Murray
No Dayton caps are not "junky" caps, but they are not the best.
The are a line level replacement for most speakers, most house brand speakers used low to mid grade caps.
So what happens is you get someone who does not hear a sound difference, and that is because the materials used do not warrant better sound. you may have a slightly more balanced sound, but you wont get better sound unless you get better caps.
Rule of thumb with crossover caps... you get what you pay for.
There is a reason some caps are really expensive, that reason is because they actually make your speakers sound better.
What set did you just knock out?
Bill Murray
Active Member
I too was puzzled by all this recap mania. But it was cheap enough so I tried it. It did make a difference, turning a mushy sounding system into a much brighter one. I had a 3 way Jensen from 1965 with an inductor smothered in tar and 2 capacitors inside a sealed can. I left the inductor alone and pulled out the old capacitors, one for mid and one for treble, and put in new ones. They were too big to fit in the can so I wired them outside the can using terminal blocks instead of soldering. I also checked the polarity on all speakers with a 9 volt battery, and discovered I had wired the mid range out of polarity with the woofer! Like back in 1965! So after correcting that and listening I was pleasantly surprised with the better sound from my 54 year old speakers. Did the same with my Altec's but found no improvement. It was a 2 way woofer and tweeter with a cap. I put in new cap but I guess the old cap was OK. I have no way to test them. They were all of the tubular type, not paper but probably very similar. I used caps from Parts Express, Dayton and Solen, I know nothing about brand quality of these. So anyway, give it a try, it was fairly cheap and easy.
If you are ever in a spot to do more crossover work, go with the Jantzen CrossCaps or the Z-Cap Standards. They are similar in price as the Daytons and will really allow you to hear the sound change.
And if you really want to not spend the $$ but want to try something other than Dayton, try the "Audiophilier" brand.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-Audio...672271?hash=item3628cbb30f:g:xMcAAOSwLsBZXPHt
Parts Express has them too.
I have used them a few times and was really happy with them, they will best the Daytons and are lower buck.
Bill Murray
Active Member
Yes I am the real Bill Murray. I had the name before that obnoxious unfunny "comedian". So the semi-junky Daytons still improved the sound, so I will live with it. Maybe in another 54 years I will change them.1st question... Are you the real Bill Murray
No Dayton caps are not "junky" caps, but they are not the best.
The are a line level replacement for most speakers, most house brand speakers used low to mid grade caps.
So what happens is you get someone who does not hear a sound difference, and that is because the materials used do not warrant better sound. you may have a slightly more balanced sound, but you wont get better sound unless you get better caps.
Rule of thumb with crossover caps... you get what you pay for.
There is a reason some caps are really expensive, that reason is because they actually make your speakers sound better.
What set did you just knock out?
70's Rockfan
Rough N Ready
Yep , you were Bill Murray 7 years before he was
Nice, and I have used plenty of Dayton caps, I'm not trying to dump on the brand. I just know you can squeeze more sound out of some drivers with better quality caps.
Bill Murray
Active Member
Actually, I have done something heretical with my crossovers. Solder is only used at the final speaker terminal end. Everything else is connected with terminal blocks or wire nuts! So crucify me! This way I can easily swap in different caps and check for difference. I normally do not buy house brands. (I once had a Knight amplifier and instantly regretted it). But I wasn't familiar enough with the small parts world to even know that.Nice, and I have used plenty of Dayton caps, I'm not trying to dump on the brand. I just know you can squeeze more sound out of some drivers with better quality caps.
Bill Murray
Active Member
BTW jobrewer or anyone else...... I am looking for electrolytic caps to replace some I have in an old VM console and am having difficulty. They are 20, 40 and 60uf 450v but the various websites dont seem to have them. Any advice?Nice, and I have used plenty of Dayton caps, I'm not trying to dump on the brand. I just know you can squeeze more sound out of some drivers with better quality caps.
https://www.mouser.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjejyv8Kf5gIVsR-tBh2GNwwREAAYASAAEgJbNfD_BwE
Mouser Electronics
Or you may have to build up to that microfarad, just make sure they are all 450v or above in voltage and run in parallel
I had seen the Audiophilier brand on Ebay but was concerned they would be like buying transistors through Amazon. Went with Erse instead. Mistake?
I don’t know the brand Eres, so I can’t speak to as what is better.
Parts Express has them as well, they are not an “eBay special”.
I think the best bang for your buck is Jantzen CrossCaps and the Jantzen Z-Cap Standards (blue caps)
The Audiophiler caps sound better than the Dayton’s to me, they are similar in price range too, cheaper actually. Dayton’s are know due to this site pushing them so much as it’s a low buck start to the game. I love Dayton for that, their binding posts are what you want... amazing, there caps are just line level swap tho, if the original caps are out of tolerance or dry the speakers may sound muddy or “off”. The Dayton’s will bring the crossover point back in line, but may not sound there best.
The issue is most speakers being recapped didn’t start with HQ caps. so with Dayton as a replacement your replacing a low to mid level cap for a low to mid level cap. Than folks say “it sounds the same”....
I can’t speak for others, I can only say I’ve used Dayton’s and a few other brands. I can say I UNDERSTAND when someone says “I don’t notice a sonic change”. My 1st question is did you use Dayton caps?
Do a search on all the re-cap threads, find the threads where others are talking about using Ayden, Jantzen, Solen, and many others... funny how they all say it so much better.
I find it perplexing that folks argue about caps and wire.... that’s like saying low buck tires on your car will give you the same performance as some pro grade tires.... There both round and made of rubber....
You get what you pay for, I feel Dayton is a good cap and will keep your speakers sounding good. That said there are caps that will make your speakers sound better.
T68
Super Member
When I recapped a pair of fully working Tandberg tl1610 just as a precaution after reading that it should be done, I broke the crossover pcb when trying to loosen the fixing screws and slipped with the screewdriver... Could fix it by some bypass cables and emergency soldering. Working in a not too purdy hillbilly-fix way. Soundwise no difference with new caps.
Lesson learned.
If it aint broken - don´t fix it.
Lesson learned.
If it aint broken - don´t fix it.