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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

900ss said:
I am looking for something that allows the timbre of the instruments to sound a bit more natural and I have a concern about experimenting with the slightly more expensive Selenium's and finding they don't quite get it.
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Radian 475PB-8 :yes: Almost 4X the cost and worth every penny. I did not care for the Selenium's (D220Ti) and returned them to PE.
 
As Zilch points out, there are a number of excellent options if you want to spend the money. BMS, 18sound, Radian, JBL, Paudio, B&C, Beyma, and others all make great options. If you go to any audio site outside of those focused on a particular brand and ask which compression driver is best, you'll probably get 7-8 different answers. The best I've heard so far was the 18sound NSD1480N but I'd really like to get my hands on the 2452H-SL and 2435HPL to compare someday.
 
Hey guys,

I successfully E'Waved my Pioneer CS-99A's last night with the standard <95db Jacklab crossover and enjoyed fine stereo sound for hours while I moved boxes and cleaned house. The process was very simple and reversible. Back baffle unscrews, clipped and stripped the woofer leads that went to the internal crossover, checked polarity with a C cell battery, used wire nuts to connect to the external crossover/ waveguide and then rocked the house. I've got it hooked up to a Marantz 2225 with my iPod as a convenient source. Sounded great.

Note to self: be sure to rip your CDs at higher bitrates.Low bitrate compression is glaringly obvious with E'Waves!
 
Hey guys, I am still lurking. Couldn't get enough of all these discussions. I bought a pair of 2235H from a LHF member yesterday but won't be able to try them out for a while. My friend visited me last week and was so impressed with the EWG that he had to take them home to try with his system. Knowing him, I won't be seeing them back til he gets his up and running, and JBL is outa stock.

Anyway, he thinks the D220Ti is a excellent value for the cost but would like to kludge a JBL 2435HPL into the standard PT waveguide since he has a pair just sitting there. I have to agree with him that the clarity on the 2435 is amazing. He's thinking of doing some surgery to the WG in order to mount this 1.5" driver. What do you think? Is it feasible? How low can this WG load a driver if we redo the crossover? He really does not have the room at home to have the large WG that Zilch is playing with.

A little off topic here but I got to hear the JBL 4430 at the seller's house yesterday. The sound is really excellent. IMHO...the JBL horn does not seem to have quite the even dispersion of the PT WG but you do get a bit more of the raw energy bite that seems to be lacking (just a little bit) on the EWG with the D220Ti. I can understand now why Zilch uses the 4430 as his reference system.
 
Zilch, the only reference I could find to Quiet Kote was where you tested coating the diaphrams to no particular benefit.

The only reference I could find to B&KMan is your last post, above, and I can't find an AK member with that name. Could you be thinking of the Heritage forum?
 
Zilch said:
I did the Quiet-Kote and measured it, reported earlier in this thread somewhere. The difference is audible when you thump the waveguide, but not worth the cost. If you want "inert," you install the waveguide in a sand-packed enclosure as described by my good friend B&KMan, a vibration analysis expert over on LHF.... :yes:
Click to expand...

If you look at the pic of my Ewaves you will see the waveguides are mounted in boxes which I then filled with sand. This makes a very inert brick to work with. I had to trim the fins back on the injection molding around the threading for the compression driver. I then used a forstener bit to cut a nice hole for this to insert into in the back of the box and sealed around it. The holes for filling with sand are in the bottom of the box. I filled with sand, tamping it as I went, and then filled the holes with dowel of the appropriate diameter. It is a permanent installation of the waveguide in my case and I ended up going back and filling the screw head holes on the face and priming and painting the whole thing to give it a little better appearance.
 
Very nice, Vaughn. Those suckers must weigh 10-12 pound each! Very impressive.

And you're right, it's hard to see anything but whitewalls, looking at them. :D

Well, you did that and I saw somebody else packing his with what looked like modelling clay or putty. I'm just wondering what the real effect is, and to what extent it's audible - given that I'm an old guy and don't do much, if anything, above 10kHz. Mine do sound a bit sharp. I'm just now trying the thing with the KegPlugz.
 
TnT2 said:
Anyway, he thinks the D220Ti is a excellent value for the cost but would like to kludge a JBL 2435HPL into the standard PT waveguide since he has a pair just sitting there. I have to agree with him that the clarity on the 2435 is amazing. He's thinking of doing some surgery to the WG in order to mount this 1.5" driver. What do you think? Is it feasible? How low can this WG load a driver if we redo the crossover? He really does not have the room at home to have the large WG that Zilch is playing with.
Click to expand...
At $9.90 apiece, it's cheaper than $100+ apiece for the real deal 1.5" PT waveguide, but those are available in this size.

1 kHz, perhaps, but 1.2 kHz is well established as workable.... :yes:


Paratima said:
I'm just now trying the thing with the KegPlugz.
Click to expand...
This would be the "correct" spelling, in my view. ;)

B&KMan is LHF. I'll try to find my post here via Stealth methology.... :yes:


Edit:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1886261&#post1886261

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2138998&#post2138998
 
Paratima said:
Zilch, the only reference I could find to Quiet Kote was where you tested coating the diaphrams to no particular benefit.

The only reference I could find to B&KMan is your last post, above, and I can't find an AK member with that name. Could you be thinking of the Heritage forum?
Click to expand...

There is a post abput dampening the wave guide, and as I remember, was closer to "the begining". someone inquired, Zilch tried it, found it made a difference in tapping on it, but not listening to it.

Russellc
 
I believe you. :D Please post a reference, that I may read it myself and be enlightened. This is the problem with 200-plus page threads. Great for socialization, problematic as reference material.
 
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Zilch said:
Our intent in developing the EconoWave project was to provide an inexpensive introduction to the character of contemporary loudspeaker design; the Seleniums serve the purpose well, and the result as many E'Wavers have discovered, is a major step up from more familiar loudspeaker fare. It was also our intent that those who found the experience worthy would explore enhanced implementations of the E'Wave concept.

Personally, in initial testing, I heard differences in the sound of D210ti vs. D220ti, and have since preferred and recommended the latter. Others found the D210ti acceptably adequate at this level, and it lowered the admission fee. For minimal cost, D220ti may provide improved performance. As D210ti has apparently been discontinued, it once again becomes the default driver of choice.

The BMS drivers have Mylar diaphragms, which have a smoother sound than titanium, in my experience. They are also a major step up in design and construction quality, and cost, alas, as well. Much of our early work with the E'Wave concept was done with BMS, and several AKers have found them to be an improvement upon Altec and other vintage drivers on our advice relating to other applications. I have not taken a serious look at updating the E'Wave crossover for use with BMS, but I do have another project underway with a fellow AKer presently which will soon require my doing that.

There is a wide range of alternative compression drivers between Selenium and BMS available, and many of them are intriguing, but I just do not have the time to evaluate these for everyone. I am familiar with a range of JBL drivers, but "entry level" with those begins equivalent to BMS, costwise. Again, as we have already seen, crossover modifications are required; none of these are "Plug 'n' Play." We encourage those having the wherewithall for doing so to explore these many alternatives; it's part of the adventure here.

The 1.5" version of the E'Waveguide is higher quality in construction, but 10x the cost. It is also available in different dispersion patterns. Jack and I started with the 100° x 100° version when they were first introduced, and that being the equivalent of 4430's "Butt-cheek" Biradial, remains a favorite for me, personally, despite my recognition that E'Wave's 90° x 50° is arguably the better choice. The available selection of 1.5" drivers to mate with these is limited, but BMS 4555 works quite well. JBL also offers a 1" thread-on throat adapter for use with them. For TOTL E'Wave upgrade performance, it's JBL 2452H-SL mated with the 1.5" PT waveguides, in my view and experience; see Duffinator's JBL DIY project here on AK as example. Others on the LHF are achieving excellent results using JBL 2435HPL beryllium-diaphragm drivers; Jack and I started with the less expensive aluminum-diaphragm version of those neodyniums, 2431H, also currently used in some TOTL JBL consumer product offerings as 435Al.

Good stuff, all of this. Wave ON...! :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

What is the part number for the 100 x 100 version ? Do you recall if it needed the "special compensation" required of 2344 in the 4430 monitor?

Thanks, I cant remember!

Russellc
 
AH-HA! :banana:

Thank you, thank you. :ntwrthy:

I searched on every variation I could think of on "Quiet Kote" and came up blank. He never mentioned it by name, so...
banghead.gif


How did ya find it?

PS. No wonder Zilch forgot it. It was on the Heritage forum and it was three years ago!
 
"Stealth methology" indeed.
I didn't copy it from #3990, honest.
I searched "thump" (after trying "tap" and "ring")
 
SPAM said:
"Stealth methology" indeed. I didn't copy it from #3990, honest. I searched "thump" (after trying "tap" and "ring")
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Heh, heh.

I used "sand." GMTA, obviously.... ;)

It's #3989, now, 'cause I just consolidated posts.

Don't know if anybody but me cares, but I try not to post sequentially. I'm wordy and I know it; there's little point in revin' up the post count.... :tongue:
 
:lmao: Too entirely wonderful!

However, from the Heritage forum, I get these words attributed to the Zilchster, himself.

Remarkably inexpensive JBL 1" PT-F95 waveguide ($9.90, P/N 338800-001) benefits from application of CAE "Quiet Kote" damping to the rear side.
Click to expand...

He goes on to say that one coat is not enough and four is too many. Hmmm. :scratch2: I don't think he ever got around to actually measuring. Well, turns out that I've got a brand-new, unsullied pair of guides here, a can of Quiet Kote and an SPL meter. :scratch2:
 
Oh, THOSE links!

Um, I don't do very well on cumulative spectral whatevers. Could we get an off-the-cuff translation into non-geek, please? :confused:
 
wiredbecker said:
Hey guys,

I successfully E'Waved my Pioneer CS-99A's last night with the standard <95db Jacklab crossover and enjoyed fine stereo sound for hours while I moved boxes and cleaned house. The process was very simple and reversible. Back baffle unscrews, clipped and stripped the woofer leads that went to the internal crossover, checked polarity with a C cell battery, used wire nuts to connect to the external crossover/ waveguide and then rocked the house. I've got it hooked up to a Marantz 2225 with my iPod as a convenient source. Sounded great.

Note to self: be sure to rip your CDs at higher bitrates.Low bitrate compression is glaringly obvious with E'Waves!
Click to expand...

How about listening to some albums and cd's and give us a better
description/understanding of before and after on those 99a's :smoke:
 
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