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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

"I have often thought of the three way as well, and I'm considering one of Wayne's Mid horns, with the wave guide on top...one day.

russellc"



I have often thought of a three way as well, I'd be considering twins, Me horny baby, with the hottest chick guiding on top...one day.:drool:

Kegger
 
Kegger said:
"I have often thought of the three way as well, and I'm considering one of Wayne's Mid horns, with the wave guide on top...one day.

russellc"



I have often thought of a three way as well, I'd be considering twins, Me horny baby, with the hottest chick guiding on top...one day.:drool:

Kegger
Click to expand...

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
3-way Ewaves from Valencias:

I've figured out that if I remove the existing horn enclosure from the cabinet and make a new full baffle I can get a 15", the LE10 and the waveguide all on the baffle.
Click to expand...
I don't believe the LE10 is an optimum choice for the three-way midbass driver. There are other choices in that frame size with which RobH is very familiar. Send him a PM and ask him to advise here.

I used the differential-drive 2251J in mine. The 8" 2118H is also commonly used for this. See 4628B Cabaret, for example. You'll have to build a separate chamber inside for whatever mid driver you use.

Woofer, I'd be using LE14 or one of the higher sensitivity JBL 14s, if that is the objective. I don't believe Valencia is wide enough for dual 12s, but if so, that's an option as well, running one in "0.5" mode to extend the bass response. Altec 414s come to mind.

Also, a single HPM-100 woofer might be a good choice.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
I don't believe the LE10 is an optimum choice for the three-way midbass driver. There are other choices in that frame size with which RobH is very familiar. Send him a PM and ask him to advise here.

I used the differential-drive 2251J in mine. The 8" 2118H is also commonly used for this. See 4628B Cabaret, for example. You'll have to build a separate chamber inside for whatever mid driver you use.

Woofer, I'd be using LE14 or one of the higher sensitivity JBL 14s, if that is the objective. I don't believe Valencia is wide enough for dual 12s, but if so, that's an option as well, running one in "0.5" mode to extend the bass response. Altec 414s come to mind.

Also, a single HPM-100 woofer might be a good choice.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. Yes, any open backed midwoofer installed on the baffle will need a subenclosure behind it. I have the LE10s on hand is why I was thinking in terms of those. I'm trying not to shell out a whole lot of dough out of pocket on this. The Valencia's baffle is 25"W X 27"H so it could have vertically or horizontally arranged dual 12"s (barely). Vertically would be preferred, as it would allow the WG to go right over the midwoofer.
I'd like the midwoofer to go as low as 200hz if possible. I find that a crossover above that range is audible to me. I like the idea of 1.5 woofers for extra support of the bottom octave.
Sensitivity is not necessarily a design goal. I have modest volume needs and plenty of power. If the whole system was 88db or better that would be fine. There are plenty of good drivers that meet that standard.
The goals are, more or less in order of importance
1)wide bandwidth
2) wide dispersion
3)limited out of pocket cost
4)use Valencia cabs on hand
5)use familiar selenium driver and 50 X 90 waveguide.
6)limited tricky woodwork
7)sensitivity
8)appearance

I suppose the 406Z woofers from my Boleros would work pretty well also. I know they'll play fine up to the crossover point. They're a little exotic to be designing around, though.
The Kef B110 that I like so much almost works but I think there would be a drastic sensitivity mismatch with the HF.

Gotta think on this some more. I don't know those 4-digit JBL drivers that Zilch mentioned so I'll have to do some research there.

************************* EDIT *********
The JBL 2118 looks really good. Way more power handling than I need and certainly better performance than the LE10. Just about in the price range also.
 
2118H is what I'm using for a midbass driver, with the 2225 for the woofer, as both are
roughly 97DB sens they work rather well together, but if the higher sens isn't what the
design goal is then the LE10's you have should work with a woofer near the same sens.
 
Bauhausler said:
If the whole system was 88db or better that would be fine. There are plenty of good drivers that meet that standard.
Click to expand...
LE14's certainly going to get that, and if there's any "issue" with it, that's not down in the range you want to use it.

I'm trying to get you vertical-in-line here. LE14's just 12.75" across the flats, as I recall. That's also why the HPM-100 woofer comes to mind, as well.... :dunno:
 
Bauhausler said:
Thanks for the advice. Yes, any open backed midwoofer installed on the baffle will need a subenclosure behind it. I have the LE10s on hand is why I was thinking in terms of those. I'm trying not to shell out a whole lot of dough out of pocket on this. The Valencia's baffle is 25"W X 27"H so it could have vertically or horizontally arranged dual 12"s (barely). Vertically would be preferred, as it would allow the WG to go right over the midwoofer.
I'd like the midwoofer to go as low as 200hz if possible. I find that a crossover above that range is audible to me. I like the idea of 1.5 woofers for extra support of the bottom octave.
Sensitivity is not necessarily a design goal. I have modest volume needs and plenty of power. If the whole system was 88db or better that would be fine. There are plenty of good drivers that meet that standard.
The goals are, more or less in order of importance
1)wide bandwidth
2) wide dispersion
3)limited out of pocket cost
4)use Valencia cabs on hand
5)use familiar selenium driver and 50 X 90 waveguide.
6)limited tricky woodwork
7)sensitivity
8)appearance

I suppose the 406Z woofers from my Boleros would work pretty well also. I know they'll play fine up to the crossover point. They're a little exotic to be designing around, though.
The Kef B110 that I like so much almost works but I think there would be a drastic sensitivity mismatch with the HF.

Gotta think on this some more. I don't know those 4-digit JBL drivers that Zilch mentioned so I'll have to do some research there.

************************* EDIT *********
The JBL 2118 looks really good. Way more power handling than I need and certainly better performance than the LE10. Just about in the price range also.
Click to expand...

I got a pair of 2123H I'm going to use when the time comes. ( rereading post to make sure Kegger cant make me look silly, looks OK, done:D

Russellc
 
Zilch said:
LE14's certainly going to get that, and if there's any "issue" with it, that's not down in the range you want to use it.

I'm trying to get you vertical-in-line here. LE14's just 12.75" across the flats, as I recall. That's also why the HPM-100 woofer comes to mind, as well.... :dunno:
Click to expand...

I'm a little unclear on what function you're recommending the LE14 for. The middle of a 3-way (probably) or the bottom of a 3-way (paging Kegger...)

On a new baffle in the Valencia cab I could fit the waveguide with a LE14 directly under it on one side and a pair of 12" on the other side. That's a ton of cone area for that cabinet. There would be room for ports under the LE14. Man, that baffle would be Swiss cheese.

The last pair of LE14As I had came out of C38s and went immediately to Yokohama for several hundred dollars. That would put them out of my price range, but I suppose if I rounded up a couple of refoamable singles the price would be lower.
Man, you're making me WORK for this!
 
Additionally, I'd like to know why the LE14 is preferred over the LE10 for this application. Sensitivity? I don't know the detailed characteristics of either.
 
I think he is suggesting it's use as the woofer in a 3 way, and something other than an LE10 as the midrange.

With the LE14, I think what he is hoping for is to use the woofer, midrange, and waveguide aligned vertically in the cabinet. LE14s would prove to be an easier implementation of that idea than trying to squeeze a round frame 15" driver and an 8" or so round driver in the area you have available.
 
dnewma04 said:
I think he is suggesting it's use as the woofer in a 3 way, and something other than an LE10 as the midrange.

With the LE14, I think what he is hoping for is to use the woofer, midrange, and waveguide aligned vertically in the cabinet. LE14s would prove to be an easier implementation of that idea than trying to squeeze a round frame 15" driver and an 8" or so round driver in the area you have available.
Click to expand...

The height is 27" and the horn needs at least 6". That leaves 21". If the LE14 is 12.75" that leaves 8.25" if the drivers are all stacked edge to edge and the full height of the baffle is used. I guess an 8" midrange could be used but it would be super close.

I don't see the need to vertically stack the midrange and the woofer other than for aesthetics. At the crossover frequency of 200 - 300 hz the wavelength dwarfs the C-to-C distance of the mid and woofer in any conceivable position.
The midrange and the waveguide should definitely be vertically aligned and as close as possible. I'd prefer the waveguide to be positioned off center in the cabinet to improve stereo spread. This room forces narrow placement of the cabinets and I can get at least an extra foot of spread by using the outside edges of the cabs. I think there are benefits of not placing the midrange centrally on a wide baffle as well. Off center placement should reduce baffle step effects by not piling up identical edge distances.

I don't know how the math works out, but my experiences with the LE14 didn't impress me as having stupendous bottom end. For a driver to be used from 30 hz to 250 hz or so I think something optimized for that range is preferred. It would be a shame to throw away the best part of the range of an expensive pair of drivers and settle for their compromised performance in the bottom octaves.
 
sometimes a pic is worth 1000

So here's a diagram of a 25" X 27" baffle showing the waveguide and variously sized midranges and woofers. Raise your hand if you keep a compass and scale in your desk for stuff like this.
Contrary to my sloppy drawing, two 12" will fit side by side at the bottom of the baffle and do not overlap.

attachment.php


************** edit ************
Here's another arrangement that I like. The midrange's center-to-edge distances here are 7", 11", 16" and 18" to break up the edge diffraction effects, etc. I think that could be improved upon somewhat. The 12" woofer on teh right would be run as a '.5'
Plenty of room at the upper right for ports, lpad controls, etc.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=138249&stc=1&d=1235668591

Looking at the calculations for baffle step, however, I think it might actually be useful to place the midrange in teh exact center of the baffle. The baffle step diffraction frequency for this baffle size is about 190 hz. That means that a centrally placed midrange will experience a drop off in response below this frequency. This could be useful in assisting the crossover to the woofer.
Anyway, here's a pic:

attachment.php


***************** FURTHER EDIT *************************

Here's teh arrangement with 2 X 12" and an 8" placed centrally to receive maximum effect from baffle Step Diffraction around 170 hz.
This arrangement gives up the assymetrical placement of the higher frequency components but the HP transition to the midwoofer benefits from the cabinet geometry.

attachment.php
 

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