Thank you.
Oh, I failed to mention that I've been building speakers for a decade or so. This is hardly my first attempt; just my first with a horn and high-efficiency drivers.
Cheers,
mac
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Thank you.
Oh, I failed to mention that I've been building speakers for a decade or so. This is hardly my first attempt; just my first with a horn and high-efficiency drivers.
Cheers,
mac
HatchetJack
Chillin' The Most
Ok,I am building my second set of e-waves and could use some advice.
I found some old "hed-cerwin vega" cabs at a thrift for 8.00. They are
11.5 deep x 14.5 wide x 25.5 tall.They are mdf and have a textured finish.
I am currently re-painting them a textured autumn brown color.I traded for
some new in the box 10" dayton classics and already have my standard
jbl waveguides.The daytons are a drop in fit and the screw holes even line
up. I plan to order the 220 drivers
The daytons are 89db and 25-2,500 so I use the standard crossover
or is there an adjustment I should make before ordering the crossover parts?
The cabs have a rear port 3" by 7" deep. Should I move the port to the front
panel? same size? smaller twin ports on each side of woofer?
I found some old "hed-cerwin vega" cabs at a thrift for 8.00. They are
11.5 deep x 14.5 wide x 25.5 tall.They are mdf and have a textured finish.
I am currently re-painting them a textured autumn brown color.I traded for
some new in the box 10" dayton classics and already have my standard
jbl waveguides.The daytons are a drop in fit and the screw holes even line
up. I plan to order the 220 drivers
The daytons are 89db and 25-2,500 so I use the standard crossover
or is there an adjustment I should make before ordering the crossover parts?
The cabs have a rear port 3" by 7" deep. Should I move the port to the front
panel? same size? smaller twin ports on each side of woofer?
That's gonna work nicely, HatchetJack.
Use the standard crossover components.
Download WinISD and have a look at port number and size options; I believe you'll find the Dayton is in their database.
I usually prefer front porting, 'cause my speakers end up in odd places....
Use the standard crossover components.
Download WinISD and have a look at port number and size options; I believe you'll find the Dayton is in their database.
I usually prefer front porting, 'cause my speakers end up in odd places....
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Thank you.
Oh, I failed to mention that I've been building speakers for a decade or so. This is hardly my first attempt; just my first with a horn and high-efficiency drivers.
Cheers,
mac
I assume you'll be implementing the CD compensation for the driver/waveguide ahead of the power amp? I don't see any in your passive crossover. Without it the output drops several db/octave above 3khz.
Crossover with CD compensation:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83308&d=1205870935
Without compensation you'd get something like the red line here:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80289&d=1203832069
There's a lot of good design work in this thread. Whatever your background, I'd recommend taking a look at it.
HatchetJack
Chillin' The Most
Thanks Zilch:thmbsp:
No, it will be done in the HP of the crossover after I measure my drivers. (My crossover was based on measurements traced by the manufacturer's specs for the drivers and was a loose approximation.)
Yep. I would use the uncompensated curve to remodel my crossover, yet I have not been able to locate one for the D220ti/JBL horn combo. Do you know of one?
With over 300 pages of posts, I'm finding it difficult to filter it all out. :scratch2:
I will post again after I have my test mule built and have some actual measurements.
Cheers,
mac
Post #1 maybe?
Very long thread but I want to first say thank you to Zlich, Russell and anyone else that had a hand in this project. Its a great read and Im only at page 40 or so. Love that Geddes was involved to do some measurements.
Im researching what I need for my 2-way waveguide design. I already have TD12Ms from AE speakers so Im not totally doing an econo thing but I still might choose a similar waveguide
My choices are Geddes Abbey kits, DDS eng 90, 18sound XT1086 or the JBL waveguide listed in this thread.
My compression drivers choices are BMS 4552, B&C DE250, Selenuim D220.
My only question for this thread is that the measurements from the D220 pdf shows it isnt great down to 1.2Hz, I have read on here and had others post opinion that its fine down to 1.2Hz...is this actually true. Doesn't the impedance look bad down there?
I would love to use the D220 for obvious $$$ reasons. Im aware the BMS4552 is a stellar option and Im prepared to go that route I just want to make sure.
Sorry if these have been answered, its a very large thread and I have spent 4 hours over the past two days learning and reading as much as I can and I still a little confused.
I might end up buying the JBL/D220 no matter what to just test myself since they are extremely cheap and not much money wrt to R&D
EDIT: Im such a NOOB, after re-reading about the designs for the 50th time....it just clicked in, I think????
The D220 has a crossover @ 3K and the Woofer has a crossover @ 1.2K, makes sense!
Im researching what I need for my 2-way waveguide design. I already have TD12Ms from AE speakers so Im not totally doing an econo thing but I still might choose a similar waveguide
My choices are Geddes Abbey kits, DDS eng 90, 18sound XT1086 or the JBL waveguide listed in this thread.
My compression drivers choices are BMS 4552, B&C DE250, Selenuim D220.
My only question for this thread is that the measurements from the D220 pdf shows it isnt great down to 1.2Hz, I have read on here and had others post opinion that its fine down to 1.2Hz...is this actually true. Doesn't the impedance look bad down there?
I would love to use the D220 for obvious $$$ reasons. Im aware the BMS4552 is a stellar option and Im prepared to go that route I just want to make sure.
Sorry if these have been answered, its a very large thread and I have spent 4 hours over the past two days learning and reading as much as I can and I still a little confused.
I might end up buying the JBL/D220 no matter what to just test myself since they are extremely cheap and not much money wrt to R&D
EDIT: Im such a NOOB, after re-reading about the designs for the 50th time....it just clicked in, I think????
The D220 has a crossover @ 3K and the Woofer has a crossover @ 1.2K, makes sense!
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Post #1 maybe?
I see several curves but none of the D220ti with JBL horn uncompensated. Is a PT-F95 wave guide a JBL 338800-001? :scratch2:
Very long thread but I want to first say thank you to Zlich, Russell and anyone else that had a hand in this project. Its a great read and Im only at page 40 or so. Love that Geddes was involved to do some measurements.
Im researching what I need for my 2-way waveguide design. I already have TD12Ms from AE speakers so Im not totally doing an econo thing but I still might choose a similar waveguide
My choices are Geddes Abbey kits, DDS eng 90, 18sound XT1086 or the JBL waveguide listed in this thread.
....<snip>...
EDIT: Im such a NOOB, after re-reading about the designs for the 50th time....it just clicked in, I think????
The D220 has a crossover @ 3K and the Woofer has a crossover @ 1.2K, makes sense!
Hi,
Lots of reading to do, and then there's all the background work Zilch and others did on the Lansing Heritage (LH) forum in BEFORE coming here! Yes, the crossover seems to work fine, although I have not seen any detailed measurements (like the kind you'd see in a glossy magazine I won't name here...) of a complete system. Plenty of RTA and some CLIO(?) measurements show it works, and listening to my complete pair and comparing them with several traditional 2 and 3 way systems tells me it seems to work fine. Maybe it could be better - I'm sure lots of measuring and tweaking can make anything better, but this works pretty nicely as it is!
Don't forget this 'kit' as well:
http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/3/products_id/108
I think some of what was done here owes a bit to Wayne Parham and his crossover document and his ideas on matching woofer and horn directivity near the crossover region. Zilch et.al., is that fair to say?
Thanks, I have read a ton in the past couple of weeks so everything you posted so far has clicked and I have read about it somewhere already.
Its all just a big cloud in my head that I have to continuely sort out but atleast I have narrowed it down to the fact that either Geddes waveguides are unmatched, the DDS Eng 90 waveguide comes close (when there is no issues with the build) or the econo-wave designs found here amazingly come close to what Geddes has done. Close enough for a guy like me.
My biggest concern is that I way the waveguide design not to sound like a horn. THe JBL or Pyle (PH612) look like traditional horns so I assume they may sound like them. The DDS Eng90 and Geddes waveguides have the look to me that says "Not horns".
The other questions I have right now would be...
1. What is the measured difference between a bolt on waveguide vs a screw on waveguide?
2. the Pyle ph612 option on PE is 90 H vs 40 V, the JBL econo waveguide is 90 H vs 50 V....will the difference in the vertical coverage matter to us? Even a more general question do we care about higher vertical coverage at all?? ie..conical waveguides having 90 x 90 coverage?
Its all just a big cloud in my head that I have to continuely sort out but atleast I have narrowed it down to the fact that either Geddes waveguides are unmatched, the DDS Eng 90 waveguide comes close (when there is no issues with the build) or the econo-wave designs found here amazingly come close to what Geddes has done. Close enough for a guy like me.
My biggest concern is that I way the waveguide design not to sound like a horn. THe JBL or Pyle (PH612) look like traditional horns so I assume they may sound like them. The DDS Eng90 and Geddes waveguides have the look to me that says "Not horns".
The other questions I have right now would be...
1. What is the measured difference between a bolt on waveguide vs a screw on waveguide?
2. the Pyle ph612 option on PE is 90 H vs 40 V, the JBL econo waveguide is 90 H vs 50 V....will the difference in the vertical coverage matter to us? Even a more general question do we care about higher vertical coverage at all?? ie..conical waveguides having 90 x 90 coverage?
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Russellc
Addicted Member
He has contributed to the thread quite a bit. It is worth biting the bullet and reading it, everyone's questions have mostly already been addressed plus its a great 2-way design text for comp drivers and proper comp driver compensation. :thmbsp:
russellc
Was that one of the links posted early on in this thread? I remember a couple that referenced him.
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Zilch referred to Wayne Parhams crossover document just about the time I was starting to design a crossover for the EconoWave. It really made sense to me, although it was a pretty long read, and left some things not covered. I used the principles and formulas described by Wayne, along with some things that I figured out, to design the EconoWave crossovers. Zilch has verified that the match to the desired response is spot on.
I gave Wayne the proper credit then, and do so again here. It would have been much more difficult if Waynes paper hadn't been available to me. So again, thank you Wayne.
Yes, it's the 1" "economy" version of PT-F95HF.
Read the listening impressions of E'Wave builders:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2528142#post2528142
These are not horns, rather, waveguides.
Jack and I designed E'Wave not only as an entry level system, but also a learning platform. I'm seeing some expressed desire to skip the 101 course of late. It's under $200 to just do it.... :yes:
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Go get em Penn.
Here is a link to my Ewave build thread on this forum. I figured this thread was long enough and decided to start my own. Please feel free to leave any constructive criticism.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227959
Here is a link to my Ewave build thread on this forum. I figured this thread was long enough and decided to start my own. Please feel free to leave any constructive criticism.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227959
How do they know that it does?
The only way to actually know where the acoustical centers are is to measure them, not with a ruler, but acoustically.
If we were talking Altec 511B, yes, it'd be a fair assumption that there'd be a phase alignment issue with just about any woofer mounted on the same baffle, but assertion of the old saw that the voice coils (or is it the diaphragms?) must be vertically aligned usually means that nobody measured.
Do I know where the optimum alignment of centers may be with E'Wave, a typical woofer a builder might use, and the E'Wave crossover? Nope, but it's fairly easy to ascertain from measuring the locations of nulls in the system response. In some instances, it's desireable to "tilt" the plane of alignment, as well. JBL 4430, for example, is biased 10° upward. Maybe it's 8°, actually.
I'm not suggesting it's not an issue, rather, merely that anyone who assumes it's a major one has never actually worked with these variables to make the requisite determinations....
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