Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Pio1980]

DQ10 is Large Advent woofer, no?

Slam dunk done.

"Next...?"

Yes, but---. The Advent top end is it's worst feature and it deserves better. The DQ-10s had a pretty decent top end. They are also worth something now in decent cdx, the aging Advents usually with bad surrounds are still major throw-away curb queens (why can't I seem to find a pair). I have a pair of DQ-20i which I believe to be the end-game of that approach and the speaker they would have preferred to have originally built if the better drivers and experience had been available. Having theoretically considered E-waving them, the top end is too good on them to mess with, and, since it's still basically an Advent woofer, putting a EW/WG on an Advent seems to make more sense and then compare to the DQs. I suspect they would be differently excellent in their respective characteristics, depending on the priorities of a giver auditioner.

The Pioneer CS-R300s are next to provisionally convert here. I provisionally heard the EW on the AR-6, a speaker I already really liked and it passes muster. The '300s are fairly efficient but lousy sounding speakers. If the E-wave redeems them, then this is truely capable of effecting a miraculous transformation. I need to get in another parts order soon.

 

[Ray Collins]

Russelc,
I think you have my trade backwards; I gave the MV50's and received the LS3/5A's plus cash...it was not an even trade. When I owned the MV50's I used them to drive a pair of Martin Logan CLS's; no low end but oh my what a sweet clear sound!!! I heard them in the local shop and bought them on the spot; first time I made such a quick, unstuddied purchase. I never had a moment's regret. Unfortunately I don't have a place for electrostatics or I would have another pair of some sort...ML's, Quads, etc. I have been hoping the waveguide configuration would match the qualities I liked in the electrostatics and had planned to purchase one of Gedde's designs. What do you think?

Ray

 

[Bauhausler]

DQ10 is Large Advent woofer, no?

Slam dunk done.

"Next...?"

Depends on who you ask. Dahlquist would probably say 'no, it just looks the same'. Gordon W would (and always does) know.
We had a pair of DQ20is apart and the woofer is a dead ringer for teh Masonite Advent unit. I think Gordon said they're equivalent, although considering the length of time the driver was made and wide tolerances, the DQ versions are probably matched better than any randomly selected pair of Advents.
The DQ-10 is another case where the original speaker might be too valuable to mod if in decent condition and too costly to ship if you found a rough pair at a good price. I've been angling for another cheap pair but even unrestored nasty ones are asking $400 around here. Madness.

You know how much I like the Large Advent woofer, and the DQ-10 is just begging to have a PH612 dropped on top of it. The grille structure would hide the whole mess.
I keep saying a cheap pair will turn up, and I'm usually right but so far no luck.
I guess I need to put a Saved Search for local ones on That Auction Site and just wait for the right pair.

 

[Pio1980]

"You know how much I like the Large Advent woofer, and the DQ-10 is just begging to have a PH612 dropped on top of it. "

Wouldn't just putting the Advent on it's side and putting the 6X12 forward (for offset correction) on top of the side closest to the woof do that? Mebbe some grille mesh and cloth to cover it all.
Still, there should be some junk DQ-10s with trashed/missing top ends and needing surrounds for cheap.

 

[Bauhausler]

Yes, but---. The Advent top end is it's worst feature and it deserves better. The DQ-10s had a pretty decent top end. They are also worth something now in decent cdx, the aging Advents usually with bad surrounds are still major throw-away curb queens (why can't I seem to find a pair). I have a pair of DQ-20i which I believe to be the end-game of that approach and the speaker they would have preferred to have originally built if the better drivers and experience had been available. Having theoretically considered E-waving them, the top end is too good on them to mess with, and, since it's still basically an Advent woofer, putting a EW/WG on an Advent seems to make more sense and then compare to the DQs. I suspect they would be differently excellent in their respective characteristics, depending on the priorities of a giver auditioner.

Last year I found a pair of DQ20i at a garage sale with rotted foams. we fixed the foam and some defective crossover components and were astonished at how good they were. Really outstanding. That's a speaker I wouldn't ewave. They never came back from my friend's house. There's an example of good design getting exemplary performance out of modest components. Makes you wonder why people buy $300 midwoofers. He's powering them with a pair of Kenwood LM07s I also repaired and sold him. I love listening to that system.

I did ewave a pair of Utility Advents and documented the build in a thread linked in Post 1. The results were absurdly good considering the modest cost and easy build. Those are 'monitors' for a musician friend though I suspect he mostly smokes w**d and listens to Zeppelin with them.

My next pair of Advent Ewaves will include new baffles, overlapped drivers, nice veneer, proper Zilch crossovers and lots of photos. Parts are all on hand but I may need to take vacation time to get it done.

 

[Bauhausler]

Still, there should be some junk DQ-10s with trashed/missing top ends and needing surrounds for cheap.

You'd think so. I found a filthy pair with bad foam at a pawn, but the guy wanted $400. Not doing that.
They sold a ton of DQ-10s. Some will turn up soon with garage sale season starting.
Because after shipping out 3 pairs of speakers in the last week I BADLY need DQ10s...

 

[Zilch]

I am curious about that little tweeter thingy Zilch shows on the Minimus in the pic. Quit teasing!

Where is this happening?

Jack is a little bit curious about that tweeter thingy as well.

C'mon, now, y'all KNOW where I dig this stuff up:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC15-WH.pdf

[You'll be shocked. ]

Depends on who you ask. Dahlquist would probably say 'no, it just looks the same'.

Nope, bigger dust cap, but I believe that's all. Yeah, I have one. Yeah, I'll measure.

[Next time I'm "doing" OLAs here. :yes: ]

I have been hoping the waveguide configuration would match the qualities I liked in the electrostatics and had planned to purchase one of Geddes's designs. What do you think?

E'Wave embodies many of the principles Geddes teaches, and by my last calc, $208 for "the works" plus detritus woofers in cabs from curbside, the thrift store, or CraigsList will get you the answer.

If you decide it sucks, you'll have little difficulty reselling the components here on AK, and maybe make a little, even, for having built out the crossovers.... :thmbsp:

 

[ROSSO]

C'mon, now, y'all KNOW where I dig this stuff up:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC15-WH.pdf

[You'll be shocked. ]

And I would suggest that if you are REALLY smitten you order said JBL-P parts TOMORROW - BEFORE the internet tidal wave rushes over the parts department and obliterates the supply of 12 pieces available in the USA. :yes:

 

[Spectrum77]

<95db X/O on 2226H?

Have JBL 4507 (4647), 2226H coming this weekend, but only the parts for the <95db crossover, scavenged from KPM-100 project.
What are the issues with using <95 db X/O versus >95db X/O? For example, tweeter not operating in middle of attenuator range, high frequencies under/over extended?
JBL specs state 'axial sensitivity' of this system as '97 db, 1w, 1m.'
Russellc, around post #150 you used the <95db version in this set up- any probs?

 

[Ray Collins]

Thanks Zilch, I am very tempted to try them. Will you venture a guess as to whether or not the electrostatic like traits I crave will be there?

Ray

 

[jrock7]

Hi, anyone who know of, or can recommend a cheap 12 inch woofer say between $50 to $85 dollars, with specs spl 96 db upward, fs about 45 to 49, freq range 48 - 3500 or 4000hz , xmax 3.7 to 4.... , Vas 2 to 3 cubic ft, and RMS wattage 200 - 300, with Cloth cone edge ( not foam or rubber edge) , also has an ebp of 103 and upward . This woofer would be used for my econo wave setup. I want to use it as a PA for outdoor or Karaoke

 

[Zilch]

Have JBL 4507 (4647), 2226H coming this weekend, but only the parts for the <95db crossover, scavenged from KPM-100 project.
What are the issues with using <95 db X/O versus >95db X/O?

You may not have enough HF SPL with the L-pad at "Max." You only need one resistor and one capacitor to convert to the other variant.

Thanks Zilch, I am very tempted to try them. Will you venture a guess as to whether or not the electrostatic like traits I crave will be there?

Maybe somebody else will speculate; I'm just not all that familar with e'stats. But even if not, you may unleash a different craving in the course of making the determination.

[Put on your Indiana Jones adventure hat.... ]

 

[Spectrum77]

You only need one resistor and one capacitor to convert to the other variant.

Yes, and only one week for the PE order to arrive. Thanks for the response.
First taste of JBL here, so I'm fixin' ter boo-gie :thmbsp:

 

[Bauhausler]

Yes, and only one week for the PE order to arrive. Thanks for the response.
First taste of JBL here, so I'm fixin' ter boo-gie :thmbsp:

A week? if I order before 3:00 PM they're here in less than 24 hours by Standard Delivery. If they're in stock, that is.

Just a reminder for those of you sitting on ewave plans for lack of waveguides, the Pyle PH612 is now shipping from PE after being backordered.

Git 'em while they're hot.

 

[BHamm]

I have been listening to my AR2ax WG conversions for a while now switching between ADS l810s. I have noticed the ARs do nat have as much detail in the mid range, almost like there is a hole there. Would this be due to the woofer not covering as high up in the mid range territory, or just a characteristic of my particular set up. I used the recipe for standard conversion w/8 ohm speakers.

 

[Bauhausler]

E'Wave embodies many of the principles Geddes teaches, and by my last calc, $208 for "the works" plus detritus woofers in cabs from curbside, the thrift store, or CraigsList will get you the answer.

If you decide it sucks, you'll have little difficulty reselling the components here on AK, and maybe make a little, even, for having built out the crossovers.... :thmbsp:

"Sucks" may be the only comment I haven't heard about ewaves. It was a pleasure to sit in the room with Kegger's HPMwaves at AK fest or another room with ewaves and see people come in to listen. Their eyes got reeeally wide when they heard they were listening to DIY speakers. Which frequently do suck in one way or another.

Whether it's to their taste or not - ribbons and electrostats do have a distinctly different sound - there's nothing about the ewave top end to dislike and a great deal that appeals.

 

[Russellc]

Russelc,
I think you have my trade backwards; I gave the MV50's and received the LS3/5A's plus cash...it was not an even trade. When I owned the MV50's I used them to drive a pair of Martin Logan CLS's; no low end but oh my what a sweet clear sound!!! I heard them in the local shop and bought them on the spot; first time I made such a quick, unstuddied purchase. I never had a moment's regret. Unfortunately I don't have a place for electrostatics or I would have another pair of some sort...ML's, Quads, etc. I have been hoping the waveguide configuration would match the qualities I liked in the electrostatics and had planned to purchase one of Gedde's designs. What do you think?

Ray

Geddes designs are well thought of, not exactly "econo" but not marketed as such either. Earlier in this thread there was a large diatribe which spilled over to the DIY forum. Several heavy hitters in the horn world weighed in and gave there opinions about all this. I tend to agree with Wayne's views on this, in terms of the round horn verses non round. Dnewman is fairly knowledgeable about the Geddes horns, he could probably advise further.

Those LS35A sure do bring big money, and there is no doubt of there classic status. I would love to have that pair of C-J amps! Very nice! I have sort of drifted away from the mini monitor thing, ( yeah right, I only have 3 pairs!)
since going mainly with Altec and JBL high efficiency speakers with large woofers. Always wondered about the Rodgers, Spendor and others,(Harbeth rings a bell, or something like that) who made the LS35A larger speaker offerings. They are very expensive, appear to be very high quality but have never had the opportunity to hear any. Accoustic sounds over in Kansas used to carry a few of these, maybe a road trip is in order.

russellc

 

[Russellc]

Depends on who you ask. Dahlquist would probably say 'no, it just looks the same'. Gordon W would (and always does) know.
We had a pair of DQ20is apart and the woofer is a dead ringer for teh Masonite Advent unit. I think Gordon said they're equivalent, although considering the length of time the driver was made and wide tolerances, the DQ versions are probably matched better than any randomly selected pair of Advents.
The DQ-10 is another case where the original speaker might be too valuable to mod if in decent condition and too costly to ship if you found a rough pair at a good price. I've been angling for another cheap pair but even unrestored nasty ones are asking $400 around here. Madness.

You know how much I like the Large Advent woofer, and the DQ-10 is just begging to have a PH612 dropped on top of it. The grille structure would hide the whole mess.
I keep saying a cheap pair will turn up, and I'm usually right but so far no luck.
I guess I need to put a Saved Search for local ones on That Auction Site and just wait for the right pair.

Anyone have a pic of this DQ-10? Is this a regular looking square speaker box, or is this the one oddly shaped 3 way thats on legs?

russellc

 

[Russellc]

Last year I found a pair of DQ20i at a garage sale with rotted foams. we fixed the foam and some defective crossover components and were astonished at how good they were. Really outstanding. That's a speaker I wouldn't ewave. They never came back from my friend's house. There's an example of good design getting exemplary performance out of modest components. Makes you wonder why people buy $300 midwoofers. He's powering them with a pair of Kenwood LM07s I also repaired and sold him. I love listening to that system.

I did ewave a pair of Utility Advents and documented the build in a thread linked in Post 1. The results were absurdly good considering the modest cost and easy build. Those are 'monitors' for a musician friend though I suspect he mostly smokes w**d and listens to Zeppelin with them.

My next pair of Advent Ewaves will include new baffles, overlapped drivers, nice veneer, proper Zilch crossovers and lots of photos. Parts are all on hand but I may need to take vacation time to get it done.

Maybe its the DQ 20 I'm thinking of in the last post?

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

You'd think so. I found a filthy pair with bad foam at a pawn, but the guy wanted $400. Not doing that.
They sold a ton of DQ-10s. Some will turn up soon with garage sale season starting.
Because after shipping out 3 pairs of speakers in the last week I BADLY need DQ10s...

I'm going to have to google Dalhquist and see what's what here.....

russellc