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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Pio1980 said:
The Pioneer woofer is not a particular great midrange unit in spite of the mfgrs apparent trust in it, judging from the original xo point of ca 4.2kc and relatively flat measured freq response.
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Tweak the lowpass; it should happen with that combo.... :yes:
 
Spectrum77 said:
That's the advantage of living in the US vs Japan. However, I do have the unobtanium TOTL Japanese dream machines pretty well wrapped up.
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I've got a basement full of tubed Fishers, Scotts, Dynas, Heathkits, Sherwoods, H-Ks and what not as (some) compensation for having to live in Detroit. We're pretty well covered up in '50s and '60s vintage gear due to there having been a middle class of music lovers here around mid last century. As much fancy modern gear and parts as I buy from the Far East I'm still a net exporter of audio equipment. It's almost merciful that the websites with the droolworthy Japanese home market only gear are unreadable or I'd be angling for all that exotic 100VAC stuff.
 
Too true, mate. Anything foreign over here goes for silly prices. Hence the appeal of '... quick and dirty' DIY projects. Long live E/W!
e.g. 4430's in ordinary condition? $1500 - $2000. Paid a black market price for the 2226H set up, and could only afford that due to damaged dust caps.
Keep on exporting.
 
Spectrum77 said:
Too true, mate. Anything foreign over here goes for silly prices. Hence the appeal of '... quick and dirty' DIY projects. Long live E/W!
e.g. 4430's in ordinary condition? $1500 - $2000. Paid a black market price for the 2226H set up, and could only afford that due to damaged dust caps.
Keep on exporting.
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Last year a friend working on renovating a Detroit high school pulled out of a Dumpster 6 sets of Altec 288C drivers and 805B horns. For what those sold for as vintage gear you could pick up 3 houses in a row in some Detroit neighborhoods.
 
dnewma04 said:
I would agree, as well. However, I did hear a number of reviews at the fest where people were not very enthralled with the ewave sound. Of course, there were more people who did like them.

I do wish there were a pair of econowaves with DE250s and sussed out crossovers on hand to show their real potential.
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I have such a pair, wish the crossover was a bit more "sussed out" Any head way here Zilch?

I heard the rooms were a little small, making small speakers sound almost full range, and the E'waves boomy and bass heavy. To bad, I havent had anyone walk away and not be impressed, with a few commenting that it is one of the most enjoyable that they had ever heard.:yes:

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
Last year a friend working on renovating a Detroit high school pulled out of a Dumpster 6 sets of Altec 288C drivers and 805B horns. For what those sold for as vintage gear you could pick up 3 houses in a row in some Detroit neighborhoods.
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Holy ****! That there is some REAL dumpster diving, yes sirree!

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
I personally was heard to say that the bass quality was not up to standard, which I attribute to small rooms. I heard the same boom and overhang in vendors' rooms where they were trying to run full range speakers with significant LF output. The lucky vendors were the ones with mini speakers whose LF was assisted by the room making them sound big and full out of small cabinets.
I'm partial to the ewave top end as an alternative to conventional dome and cone tweeters and I evaluate it on that basis. The basic D220Ti/PH612 setup is not the last word in fidelity but it's a large fraction of the performance for a small fraction of TOTL component cost.
The Econo territory here is well trodden enough that basic repeat questions are being answered for new builders for the nth time and the thread is winding around into its 4th or 5th lap. Econovariations with more stringent goals and higher specification components are of interest to me personally after I finish 2 or possibly 3 more pair builds of the basic ones.
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Good! I need sussed out crossovers for DE 250s! :D

Ruissellc
 
Russellc said:
I havent had anyone walk away and not be impressed, with a few commenting that it is one of the most enjoyable that they had ever heard.:yes:

Russellc
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The first person who heard my ULA ewave 'protos' called me over and over until I sold them to him to use as monitors.
The ewave just works for me in my listening environment. It's a 900sf room that's 36' wide. I move around here a lot, and speakers with high directionality, no matter how 'accurate', just sound wrong and unbalanced through most of the area. Wide dispersion waveguides may have some downsides, but they excel at providing good balance across a large area. I'll sacrifice some straight ahead technical performance (though not much compromise is necessary in this case) for a speaker that's compatible with a residential living space. That's a feature that's not easily derived from specs and measurements.
I have a LOT of speakers in and out of here to listen to, including some costly and exotic ones. The bottom line is that I have some kind of ewave rig running 70% of the time because it sounds good to me.
I'm definitely open to following an upgrade path for better performance in the future though.
 
Russellc said:
Holy ****! That there is some REAL dumpster diving, yes sirree!

Russellc
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You wouldn't believe the stuff we stumble across. Barons, Viscount, Harkness, Valencia, Madera, Bolero, Seville, 604s, 605s, etc. All kinds of Wharfedales, Bozaks, EVs by the carload. JBLs get noticed because they're a current brand but who wants a pair of old 15" Altec coaxials in 6 cu ft cabinets in their house?
Besides us, of course.
 
Zilch said:
Schedule a vist to ZilchLab.

We'll know what's up in about a minute.... :thmbsp:
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Its always a pleasure and honor to visit the Zilch Lab. I'll see if any other local AKers (Duff, Goreman) are in for the drive.

Thanks,

BHamm
 
Just broke a D220Ti driver

I fumbled a D220 TI while handling it attached to leads and now it's dead. Apparently when I dropped it the lead pulled the terminal lug. There's zero slack in the lead from the lug internally to the VC and when the lug moved the internal lead snapped. Sheared off where I can't even see the end of it. I'l lprobably tack solder the break and keep this for a 'spare' diaphragm. I don't usually break things. I'm surprised that a pro audio piece wasn't designed with a little tolerance for mishandling. I've seen pro drivers that were really hammered up and still worked.
 
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Bauhausler said:
You wouldn't believe the stuff we stumble across. Barons, Viscount, Harkness, Valencia, Madera, Bolero, Seville, 604s, 605s, etc. All kinds of Wharfedales, Bozaks, EVs by the carload. JBLs get noticed because they're a current brand but who wants a pair of old 15" Altec coaxials in 6 cu ft cabinets in their house?
Besides us, of course.
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That explains sooo much. Good thing that's not happening here, I am such a packrat!
 
Zilch said:
Tweak the lowpass; it should happen with that combo.... :yes:
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Thnx for the suggestion! The driver spacing will regardless by restrictions be greater than optimal for a decent vertical "window" with the finished speaker and it presently by need is in the middle of the room for the provisional test which will skew the balance somewhat. I think this 1st E-W set-up will go into the AR-6s after I acquire a keyhole saw to install the WGs. I'll need to order more stuff for the next whichever project to include upgrading the caps in my ref speakers.

Additionally I found another set of small-ish speakers with garbage top end, Advent II, while unearthing the CS-R300s from under the test mule reciever. They may also get "the treatment" but I'm not crazy about their smaller 6&1/2" woofer's lo-end potential compared to the AR 2-way's excellent 8"er. Regardless, the 6X6 should go in them just fine with very close ajacent mounting and the lower mids from the stocker pulp paper woof should be pretty good via the E-W's XO.
 
While I'm waiting for the 70 x 70 MRX WG's to come in I found a pair of 2408H's on that auction site, so I decided to take a couple comparitive measurements.

Here is the EWG with the D220TI and the 2408H on the HE version of the crossover

ewgvs1.jpg





The D220TI on the EWG

D220TIonEWG1.jpg




2408H on the EWG

2408JonEWG1.jpg
 
I'm hoping red is the D220Ti, and that's an in-room unwindowed response measurement we're looking at?

I seem to recall 2408H rolling off at the very high end like the green, i.e., it's not a BMS 4540 clone....
 
The 2408H is the red trace. It ought to be it's ~$110 a pop. It's a lower impedance driver with a NEO motor, hence the efficiency advantage. I do believe the 2407H is the BMS 4540ND clone.

You are correct in that REW is a bit unsophisticated, but there is windowing:
Picture1.png


They were measured at 1m in-room. It is purely an A-B comparative measurement. The 2408H would appear to be a great alternative for E-Waving an HE setup where the D220TI is not sensitive enough, or Ti is not your flavor.
 
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