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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

tubino said:
I have a pair of cabinets with DE250s, EW guide, 2226. I don't have optimized crossovers, but have a pair of Four Pi xovers that can be easily modified. Let's get together. You ought to hear what your old LE15Bs are doing now when hornloaded anyway.
Click to expand...

I'd like to get in on this, I have all the parts but no RTA.:tears: I'llbe happy to try things out though!:banana:

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
That's it, I'm flying to michigan where you are, renting a car and driving around looking for this stuff!:thmbsp:

russellc
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Mostly what you'll get is depressed.
That's a discussion for another thread. Having people bring you yard sale electronics is a mixed blessing. For every Fisher 400 there's 25 busted record changers and 12 pairs of Panasonic Thrusters speakers. The detritus of that search surrounds me, filling the room with the sad aura of worn out department store Stereos. Quite a few nuggets, but you have to shift a lot of rocks to get to them.

Before I go sifting this thread for Selenium and Diaphragm to read the details, am I to understand that the orientation of the diaphragm on the driver can result in measurable and audible differences in response? That sounds very unfortunate. I'd have thought that the parts were built to closer tolerances than that. If it's that simple to improve the response of a pair of drivers by moving the diaphragm and measuring then I guess it has to be done. All I lack is a mic cable and the time. The cable I can build from parts on hand but any RTA tinkering is going to have to wait until I have a clear block of hours to read the manual, load the mic compensation curve and start tinkering. I fear that once started, there's no possible end to that activity.
 
Finally got those 1.50 crossover whatever parts in the mail this week after
being backordered for a month and finished the crossovers for my second
pair of ewaves.Cabs are old HED Cerwin Vega jobs I picked up for cheap.
So I cut some port holes and install a long sweeping black pvc elbow 3"
x about 9" long.Cabs still need painting but I went ahead and zipped
everything together for a test listen at the office using the Technics SA-
400 and playstation 1 I have hooked up there.The woofers are the Dayton
10" classics about 26 bucks each.They sounded great right off with the
the L-pads dialed to about 11:00 and the woofers had that correct snap
about them and were not boomy or bass heavy at all.They really sounded
very good and I dont even have any insulation in them yet,dont know If
I will they sound so good.I will play around with them for a couple weeks
or so and finish them out and post pictures ect.. Impressed so far with that
little 10" Dayton Classic after 15 minutes listening time.:thmbsp:
 
I dimly recall a thread where Zilch or someone did a large Advent ewave conversion and used a nonstandard LP filter to increase teh bass for non-boundary positioning. But I can't find the thread. Anybody remember? I'm recalling 3.5mh or similar & can't recall the cap value.
 
Bauhausler said:
Mostly what you'll get is depressed.
That's a discussion for another thread. Having people bring you yard sale electronics is a mixed blessing. For every Fisher 400 there's 25 busted record changers and 12 pairs of Panasonic Thrusters speakers. The detritus of that search surrounds me, filling the room with the sad aura of worn out department store Stereos. Quite a few nuggets, but you have to shift a lot of rocks to get to them.

Before I go sifting this thread for Selenium and Diaphragm to read the details, am I to understand that the orientation of the diaphragm on the driver can result in measurable and audible differences in response? That sounds very unfortunate. I'd have thought that the parts were built to closer tolerances than that. If it's that simple to improve the response of a pair of drivers by moving the diaphragm and measuring then I guess it has to be done. All I lack is a mic cable and the time. The cable I can build from parts on hand but any RTA tinkering is going to have to wait until I have a clear block of hours to read the manual, load the mic compensation curve and start tinkering. I fear that once started, there's no possible end to that activity.
Click to expand...

Skywave and Zilch can fill you in on this, it was way back. If I remember correctly, Skywave had one 220 ti that had some kind of dip in its response. I think IIRC Zilch had one go out and had similar things happen when he replaced the diaphragm. i may be mixing up the events or players, but it was something close. I definately remember early on Zilch posting a chart with several example of 220 ti and there was a lot more variation in the response than the BMS or B&C drivers, but they are several times as expensive after all. I can hardly wait to have measuring capability and drive myself nuts with all this!

Russellc
 
dnewma04 said:
Pete B added baffle step compensation to advents, but didn't do the ewave conversion.
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I cant remember if it was in this thread or some other Advent thread, where Zilch chimed in about that mod, boundry reinforcement, etc. Dam this thread is huge!

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
I dimly recall a thread where Zilch or someone did a large Advent ewave conversion and used a nonstandard LP filter to increase teh bass for non-boundary positioning. But I can't find the thread. Anybody remember? I'm recalling 3.5mh or similar & can't recall the cap value.
Click to expand...
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165025

Russellc said:
Skywave and Zilch can fill you in on this, it was way back. If I remember correctly, Skywave had one 220 ti that had some kind of dip in its response. I think IIRC Zilch had one go out and had similar things happen when he replaced the diaphragm. i may be mixing up the events or players, but it was something close. I definately remember early on Zilch posting a chart with several example of 220 ti and there was a lot more variation in the response than the BMS or B&C drivers, but they are several times as expensive after all. I can hardly wait to have measuring capability and drive myself nuts with all this!
Click to expand...
Yes, all of that. There have been four or five of us who have resolved "issues" with Selenium D220Ti drivers by rotating the diaphragms. There are four possible orientations, as I recall.

Also, I don't know if the situation has improved now or not, but at one time, replacement diaphragms were hit or miss with respect to their ability to "plug 'n' play." Jack determined that one had its voice coil somewhat out of round, and once recognizing the defect, was able to correct it by hand....
 
Hey, I know it's lame, but I just got WinISD to run on my MAC. Wow!
Revelations!:smoke:

Question: Any hints on how to account for driver volume in cabinet?
 
dnewma04 said:
It was a separate thread.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the thread on baffle step compensation for stock Advents by Pete B was over on Classic Speaker Pages. I don't know if it was ever discussed on the ewave thread. Zilch did comment on Pete B's thread.
BTW it's a nice improvement over stock.
The adaptor goes in the tape monitor loop or between amp and pre.
I connected mine between the amp and preamp which wasn't as preferred as in the monitor loop. Either way the BSC corrects a lot of the shortcomings of the stock Advent sonically in my listening room environment.

I did try it with the OLA ewaves, the jury is still out. I'm not sure the BSC helps but it doesn't seem to hurt much either.
I really like the balance of the OLA ewaves as is.
 
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skywave-rider said:
Question: Any hints on how to account for driver volume in cabinet?
Click to expand...
Ignore it.

Fiberglass damping compensates for that and bracing volume.

geiman said:
Yeah, the thread on baffle step compensation for stock Advents by Pete B was over on Classic Speaker Pages. I don't know if it was ever discussed on the ewave thread. Zilch did comment on Pete B's thread.
Click to expand...
There is a closed AK thread, as well, in which Pete and I play out a techno-speaker-geek joust for the entertainment of all who dare venture there. The resourceful can still see us hold each other's feet to the fire, and then rake each other over the coals. :boxing:

[We're pals now, of course.... :tongue: ]
 
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Oboy. I just read back through the threads on the Large Advent. I had forgotten that fire fight, probably due to PTSD. I had a headache to start. Now I need 2 Tylenol and a nap.

Well, the takeaway from those extensive wrangles leads me to believe that the standard ewave crossover, PH612/D220Ti, heavy fiberglass fill configuration is valid for any of the Large Advent cabs and woofers. I'm working on reducing center to center distance with a new baffle. That seems worth doing due to the large woofer frame. The challenge is to develop processes for cutting the baffle and its holes that are reproducible error-free with the most minimal power tools. No routers or table saws, just a jig saw.
If only I didn't have 7 unfinished customer projects AND a new full time job...

Right now I'm listening to D220Ti on JBL 6 X 6, 90 X 90 waveguides on top of Minimus 77s (the 'big' ones). the imaging and mids are nice, but not enough LF for a dead 900 sf room by far. Need to seal up these Bolero cabinets and get the Altec 406Z midwoofers back into play.
 
geiman said:
Yeah, the thread on baffle step compensation for stock Advents by Pete B was over on Classic Speaker Pages. I don't know if it was ever discussed on the ewave thread. Zilch did comment on Pete B's thread.
BTW it's a nice improvement over stock.
The adaptor goes in the tape monitor loop or between amp and pre.
I connected mine between the amp and preamp which wasn't as preferred as in the monitor loop. Either way the BSC corrects a lot of the shortcomings of the stock Advent sonically in my listening room environment.

I did try it with the OLA ewaves, the jury is still out. I'm not sure the BSC helps but it doesn't seem to hurt much either.
I really like the balance of the OLA ewaves as is.
Click to expand...

I'm experimenting with line level compensation after abandoning tone controls and analog EQ for unwanted degradation of the sound. I got into this with Kef 103.3s, which require equalization with an analog line level Kube to be usable. I was uncomfortable having a mass produced opamp gizmo in my carefully developed signal chain. My solution was to reverse engineer the curve and load it into a DEQ2496. I now use the Behringer as a DAC for my digital sources (primary musical resource), compensation for the KEFs and as EQ for the system. With a DSP engine is the least compromised solution I could come up with since passive RC filters wouldn't do the job. The Behringer is an amazing Swiss army knife processor that I rely on for lots of functions now. Plus: bouncy lights!
I have yet to exercise the RTA functions of the DEQ2496 but I do have the mic. Need a boom, a cable and lots of experimentation, then it's off to the next level of speaker development.
I should read over that thread on BSC so Ican know how to set it up on the Behringer. In my main system I typically run the speakers against the (glass) back wall. The rest of the room is so big and absorptive that I need the bass reinforcement to balance the sound. If I could achieve good bass level with the speakers away from the wall the articulation and imaging would be greatly improved.
Unfortunately I'm working on multiple audio projects at teh same time: customer repairs, personal SS power amp projects like the Pass F5 I just collected all of the parts for, refurbishing vintage gear for sale and fixups of dead gear for friends. On top of a full time job this leaves only small blocks of time for speakers and not enough for concentrated application to work on developing the Behringer RTA/Mic system as a usable tool. It's a steep learning curve to get to where the new tool is paying off.
 
Candidate for a smal lwaveguide conversion

I just got a pair of NHT Ones with trashed drivers like the ones shown. They might be good candidates for a quality 6.5" midwoofer and a small waveguide. There are lots of decent 6.5" available and maybe the small pro JBL WG that Zilch was showing would fit/work. The tweeter area is 4.5" X 7.5". The cabs are well made and should be worth putting good drivers into for a quality 'desktop' system. The front baffle has a pronounced slant.

Update: The Eminence APT-150, for $40 from PE has a frame precisely 7.5 X 4.5 which would make for a tidy installation.. Might be interesting for a future project if a pair of 6.5" midwoofers that would handle a 3,500 hz crossover fell into my lap. I recall GordonW referring favorably to this inexpensive part.

http://www.parts-express.com//pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-534&CFID=11172209&CFTOKEN=28795949

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Bauhausler said:
I just got a pair of NHT Ones with trashed drivers like the ones shown. They might be good candidates for a quality 6.5" midwoofer and a small waveguide. There are lots of decent 6.5" available and maybe the small pro JBL WG that Zilch was showing would fit/work. The tweeter area is 4.5" X 7.5". The cabs are well made and should be worth putting good drivers into for a quality 'desktop' system. The front baffle has a pronounced slant.

Update: The Eminence APT-150, for $40 from PE has a frame precisely 7.5 X 4.5 which would make for a tidy installation.. Might be interesting for a future project if a pair of 6.5" midwoofers that would handle a 3,500 hz crossover fell into my lap. I recall GordonW referring favorably to this inexpensive part.

http://www.parts-express.com//pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-534&CFID=11172209&CFTOKEN=28795949

attachment.php
Click to expand...

Often wondered about those APT drivers. You gonna try one out?

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
I'm experimenting with line level compensation after abandoning tone controls and analog EQ for unwanted degradation of the sound. I got into this with Kef 103.3s, which require equalization with an analog line level Kube to be usable. I was uncomfortable having a mass produced opamp gizmo in my carefully developed signal chain. My solution was to reverse engineer the curve and load it into a DEQ2496. I now use the Behringer as a DAC for my digital sources (primary musical resource), compensation for the KEFs and as EQ for the system. With a DSP engine is the least compromised solution I could come up with since passive RC filters wouldn't do the job. The Behringer is an amazing Swiss army knife processor that I rely on for lots of functions now. Plus: bouncy lights!
I have yet to exercise the RTA functions of the DEQ2496 but I do have the mic. Need a boom, a cable and lots of experimentation, then it's off to the next level of speaker development.
I should read over that thread on BSC so Ican know how to set it up on the Behringer. In my main system I typically run the speakers against the (glass) back wall. The rest of the room is so big and absorptive that I need the bass reinforcement to balance the sound. If I could achieve good bass level with the speakers away from the wall the articulation and imaging would be greatly improved.
Unfortunately I'm working on multiple audio projects at teh same time: customer repairs, personal SS power amp projects like the Pass F5 I just collected all of the parts for, refurbishing vintage gear for sale and fixups of dead gear for friends. On top of a full time job this leaves only small blocks of time for speakers and not enough for concentrated application to work on developing the Behringer RTA/Mic system as a usable tool. It's a steep learning curve to get to where the new tool is paying off.
Click to expand...

How does the DEQ perform with curve installed compared to the KEF compensation? I suppose better or you wouldnt be bothering with it!

Russellc
 
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