• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Zilch said:
You've got a bunch of options for porting there. I think I'd work with the 5" opening and reduce it from behind with plywood and whatever duct size I needed.

I'm not sure anybody knows the 414 T/S parameters, but they're likely quite different from DC300. I don't have any, but I'm on the lookout for a pair. :yes:
Click to expand...
Roger that Zilch, Thanks!
Although I was messing around in WinISD today using the parameters for a 414-8E which are included in the current driver database (physically identical to the 8ohm version other than the voice coil I believe, but I can't seem to find info to verify the T/S data in WinISD anywhere) But it's looking like that by slightly enlarging one of the 2-inchers I could potentially ditch the ABS duct pipe.
GordonW said:
Yep. Just start out with twice the inductor size for the woofer (3mh instead of 1.5mh) and half the cap size (6uf instead of 12uf). Use the normal values on the E-wave highpass section.

You might want to over-size the woofer inductor a bit beyond that... you can always un-wind a little off of it, or decrease the cap size a bit, if there's not enough midrange. Maybe start with a 3.5mH...Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Gordon. Sounds like I'm just "in between clubs" LOL
No problem, sounds easy enough (and about a saw-off when it comes to $$ I figure)
But I never ordered anything for the crossover yet as I have a lot of misc parts in my caddy ;)
I'll find a 3.25-3.5mH then check response and "wind-off" to optimize.
Thanks again
Regards
WopOnTour
 
Last edited:
WopOnTour said:
Roger that Zilch, Thanks!
Although I was messing around in WinISD today using the parameters for a 414-8E which are included in the current driver database (physically identical to the 8ohm version other than the voice coil I believe, but I can't seem to find info to verify the T/S data in WinISD anywhere) But it's looking like that by slightly enlarging one of the 2-inchers I could potentially ditch the ABS duct pipe....
Click to expand...

WOT,
Best I can tell, my culmination of 414 TS parameters is from everywhere including 8 Ohm version(s). Probably a mess.

I volunteer to measure them for impedance and generate T/S parameters, but it will take a few days. You know I have the ceramic versions, right?
 
augerpro said:
I measured the current GPA 414-8 TS parameters....
Click to expand...
Re = 11.9 Ohms? Looks like calling those "8 Ohms" would be a stretch. They played fast and loose with that in the "vintage" days, but I'd expect GPA to get it right. Maybe not:

http://493531664873718246-a-1802744...3qMptXo3xZu-5Fw0kuX9jC63Nc5w==&attredirects=0

DavidGoncalv said:
How have the efforts on ewave in the PE trapezoid PA cabinet been going?
Click to expand...
Still working with them; I'm on hold pending:

1) Routing the baffles to flush mount the QSC446 waveguides, and

2) Brandon (Augerpro) working up an alternative passive XO....
 
Last edited:
Zilch said:
...
I consider 60% to be "heavy" fill, and don't do that with ported alignments without specific justification. :dunno:...
Click to expand...

I pulled out much of the fiberglass and the speaker sounds much better. Doesn't sound "stuffed."

I did lose as much as maybe 5 Hz in LF response.

Also busted a terminal off the DC300 woofer which connects to the VC lead..
I am seriously not good at SpeedGeeking.
Super glue holding for now, I will drop hot glue over the terminal tomorrow.
 
skywave-rider said:
WOT,
Best I can tell, my culmination of 414 TS parameters is from everywhere including 8 Ohm version(s). Probably a mess.

I volunteer to measure them for impedance and generate T/S parameters, but it will take a few days. You know I have the ceramic versions, right?
Click to expand...
Right. IIRC you have the 414-16E mudpuppies that are identical to the woofers in ONE of the 9844s that I have (the remaining three pairs are all -16C Alnico) It was these -16E units that I planned to build my first pair Econowaves from so any data you can provide that will help me tune the SP200 cabs, will me appreciated. :thmbsp:

Although I must admit, I've thought about standing the other pair of 9844 on their sides, add the .5 "helper" mod and top them off with the waveguides! and leaving the vertical 811B horns in there just for "asthetics" :tears:

Been hearin a lot of people talking about "backorders" at Parts Express but I received notice today that my order is "shipped" with anticipated arrival on Thurs. :D Should have the networks done by the weekend.

I have a feeling I'll be doing a lot of messing around once I get my Behringer mic and USB adapter (my old trusty Ratshack SPL meter just cannot keep up these days LOL) Besides our previous discussion in the 9844 thread regarding loading caps ON vs OFF etc, I've now also ordered a pair of 908-8A drivers to try with the 9844 cabs. Should be intresting to see if the Econowaves can displace the venerable 800N-902/908-811B...

WOT
 
Last edited:
WopOnTour said:
Been hearin a lot of people talking about "backorders" at Parts Express but I received notice today that my order is "shipped" with anticipated arrival on Thurs. :D Should have the networks done by the weekend.
Click to expand...

Hope I didn't generate another round of back-orders. I ordered SEVEN of the PH612 waveguides, Monday... along with ten .6mH chokes, ten 2mH chokes, ten .47uF Dayton caps and ten 4.7uF Dayton caps... :D

Believe me... I WILL be busy. For a WHILE. :zoom:

Regards,
Gordon.
 
WopOnTour said:
Right. IIRC you have the 414-16E mudpuppies that are identical to the woofers in ONE of the 9844s that I have (the remaining three pairs are all -16C Alnico) It was these -16E units that I planned to build my first pair Econowaves from so any data you can provide that will help me tune the SP200 cabs, will me appreciated. :thmbsp:

Although I must admit, I've thought about standing the other pair of 9844 on their sides, add the .5 "helper" mod and top them off with the waveguides! and leaving the vertical 811B horns in there just for "asthetics" :tears:

Been hearin a lot of people talking about "backorders" at Parts Express but I received notice today that my order is "shipped" with anticipated arrival on Thurs. :D Should have the networks done by the weekend.

I have a feeling I'll be doing a lot of messing around once I get my Behringer mic and USB adapter (my old trusty Ratshack SPL meter just cannot keep up these days LOL) Besides our previous discussion in the 9844 thread regarding loading caps ON vs OFF etc, I've now also ordered a pair of 908-8A drivers to try with the 9844 cabs. Should be intresting to see if the Econowaves can displace the venerable 800N-902/908-811B...

WOT
Click to expand...

It will do everything the altec 811 ever dreamed of doing, as wwell as 511B...with the exception of "Imaginary Gonadatrophic Effect" dicussed earlier in the thread.:D

I own and enjoy my Altecs, but modern Constant Directvity wave guides are a whole different bag.

Russellc
 
Doh, that 414 was 16 ohm, forgot. I think the results for that one fairly close to the manufacturer's specs. GPA should have specs for the 8 ohm version too. Quite a bit different from most drivers today, very compliant suspension results in a very low Fs, but with a very strong motor for control.
 
Written at 2:30 am...

I've been busy with another Secret Project and with helping other DIY-ers on their stuff so I haven't had any time to fool with my ewaves the last 2 weeks. That's probably a good thing because I've been playing music through them and they continue to improve. The current pair are JBL 2414H on JBL 6" X 6" WGs paired with Kef B110s in LS3/5A sized cabs.
When I first lit them up I liked a lot of what I heard but felt I had way too much top end. I dialed the treble way back at the Lpads. I've gradually been turning it up a notch or three as the treble smoothed out. I think a lot of harshness has gone out of the treble as I've been running them. The overall balance is better with the Lpad turned up to a typical level and there's no spittiness at all. This is the first pair that have worked best well out into the room and facing straight forward as opposed to back against the wall and toed in. I feel no urge to dink around with them, which is probably a good sign. The only thing I'll do is probably experiment with the notch filter I added to tame a 1200 hz peak in the B110. I think it needs to be less notchy.
For comparison I'm going to lash up the D220Ti/PH612 combo and stack them on top so I can switch between the two treble systems and evaluate differences by ear.

*** DATABASE ERROR ***
crap. Post later. Must sleep…
 
New crossovers likely won't be EconoWaves.

DavidGoncalv said:
How have the efforts on ewave in the PE trapezoid PA cabinet been going?
Click to expand...


Zilch said:
Still working with them; I'm on hold pending:

1) Routing the baffles to flush mount the QSC446 waveguides, and

2) Brandon (Augerpro) working up an alternative passive XO....
Click to expand...

Brandon, if my memory is correct, is working on a third order crossover, which won't be EconoWave.

I am also working on a new fourth order Linkwitz-Riley crossover, which will hopefully have time adjustment as well. But my Xover will not be EconoWave either.

The EconoWave crossover, which is simply a second order Butterworth crossover with HF compensation added, was seen to be adequate (by me) in posts number 7329 and 7342. Zilch obviously feels that flush mounting the baffle will change the results, and he may be correct. I don't believe it will be that momentous. But til Zilch gives his OK, it still ain't official.

Changing values in the standard EconoWave crossover will affect the operation, and some change may be beneficial. I just can't see how much more we hope to gain. The B&C DE250 is a different critter than the Seleniums, and the QSC waveguide/horn is also a different critter. They will perform very well as substitutions in the Econowave way of things, although maybe stretching the limits. Changing the crossovers second order cutoff moves the entire project out of the field of EconoWave.
 
As Jack points out, we're not abandoning the eWave crossover with DE250/QSC446; I just still have to get them mounted in the Traps for measurements.... :yes:
 
Last edited:
I just ordered the QSC waveguides

through the website. There was no mention on the site or in teh email order confirmation that they're backordered. I suppose if they can't ship the order I'll hear from them.
The price was $25/pair, so maybe they're on to us...
 
Any opinions on the various Eminence 12" woofers from PE? I guess what I'm really trying to ask is are any of them as good as or "better" than the JBL 123A-1/2213H? I've need a 5th for a center channel and was thinking about avoiding the EBay/Craigslist insanity. Also, what is a reasonable price for a 123A/2213H these days?

Waiting on horns and backordered coils....
 
123A/2213(H) is a unique woofer, with low Fs and high Qes and Vas, well suited to closed-box alignments. I don't believe Eminence makes anything like that.

Members are scoring L100s and 4311s for chump change recently:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257507

Pair WiredGuy most recently got were $10 at a yard sale this summer.

Check eBay closed auctions for the going rate for the woofers.
 
Zobel: Dayton Classic 8"

Been playing with Zobels since I have to nail one for my 123A-1/PE TrapBox project. Also playing with Dayton Classic 8" and Ewave with 6x6 JBL Waveguide. I think I figured out how to do it through measurements and trial and error. For those as clueless as I am, the resistor gives attenuation. The cap moves the frequency. Not completely sure how/if they interact; or perhaps it's as simple as that.

The sound is already much smoother; sure, it can be optimised better perhaps.

My question:
I bought a few different values of non polarized electrolytics to do this. Does it matter if a Zobel has a crappy cap?

Blue: Sum no Zobel. (Dayton Classic 8" in .9 cu ft box/Ewave/D220/6x6.)
Orange: Sum with 12uF/16 Ohm Zobel.
Green: LF alone with 12uF/16 Ohm Zobel.
Red: LF alone with 20uF/8 Ohm Zobel.
attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • Dayton 8" Zobels.png
    Dayton 8" Zobels.png
    56.4 KB · Views: 293
Last edited:
skywave-rider said:
The sound is already much smoother; sure, it can be optimised better perhaps.

My question:
I bought a few different values on non polarized electrolytics to do this. Does it matter if a Zobel has a crappy cap?
Click to expand...

That's looking very good, Skywave; I rarely have the guts to post with a 5 dB scale. ;)

See what's happening to phase in the crossover region.

I try not to use NPEs unless the value makes the cost of film caps prohibitive. My rationale: Yes, it's not inline and passing whatever anomalies it's generating through, but even as a shunt, if it's not doing that cleanly, it's trashing up the remaining signal it leaves behind to hear. If I have to (or choose to) use a NPE, it's gonna get a 0.01 Theta bypass cap, so I can at least pretend to have improved the situation. :yes:

How does Timbers use NPEs in Everest II? Does he bypass them? :dunno:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom