Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[donprice]

bi-amp with external crossover

What modifications should be made to the eWave crossover to use it in a true bi-amped setup with an external electronic crossover? The basic idea is to use the eWave horn section for a small PA application (acoustic guitar). Keep the horn compensation and retain some level of drunk bass player protection from the high-pass filter.

Here's what I think I figured out from crossover instructions:

Use >95 dB design component values for C1, C3, L1, R1, & R2 (any reason to choose <95 dB?)

Eliminate L2 & C2 - LF control 100% external

Leave jumpers J1 (A&B) and J2 (A&B) open

Install Jumper J3 (A&B) - not sure what this one does or doesn't do

Eliminate L-pad, install LP2-LP3 jumper

Did I miss anything?

eWave progress currently stalled due to back-ordered waveguides. JBhelL didn't bother to let me know half the order was out of stock...and didn't ship the half that was in stock.:sigh:

Don

 

[djnagle]

What modifications should be made to the eWave crossover to use it in a true bi-amped setup with an external electronic crossover? The basic idea is to use the eWave horn section for a small PA application (acoustic guitar). Keep the horn compensation and retain some level of drunk bass player protection from the high-pass filter.

Here's what I think I figured out from crossover instructions:

Use >95 dB design component values for C1, C3, L1, R1, & R2 (any reason to choose <95 dB?)

Eliminate L2 & C2 - LF control 100% external

Leave jumpers J1 (A&B) and J2 (A&B) open

Install Jumper J3 (A&B) - not sure what this one does or doesn't do

Eliminate L-pad, install LP2-LP3 jumper

Did I miss anything?

eWave progress currently stalled due to back-ordered waveguides. JBhelL didn't bother to let me know half the order was out of stock...and didn't ship the half that was in stock.:sigh:

Don

If you are using two amps running through an active crossover, then you don't need the eWave crossover. Just make sure you hit the "CD" button on the active. This will give you the bump you need and Z and J have been working so hard on to do in the eWave crossover.

 

[djnagle]

Here is a link to the SP12C. It has a high Qts at .62 but a low Xmas at .132 so it would most likely make a good OB but would not stand loud volumes.

 

[dnewma04]

If you are using two amps running through an active crossover, then you don't need the eWave crossover. Just make sure you hit the "CD" button on the active. This will give you the bump you need and Z and J have been working so hard on to do in the eWave crossover.

That might work, but CD compensation is generally not generic, so it's usually not that easy. If I had an active x-over without advanced EQ features, i'd be tempted to do the CD compensation passively.

 

[djnagle]

I'd agree if for home use, but he is using them in a club and everyone, including his bass player, will be drunk and high on crack, so what the hey!

 

[Zilch]

Did I miss anything?

Should work if you pick the optimum active XO frequency, which I don't know what is, as I've never run in that mode other than experimentally. Jack and I both tried it early in the thread.

There's no point in using the <95 dB version unless you want the additional ~5 dB of attenuation.

J3 provides access to implementing switch-selectable multiple HF comp and attenuation contours externally, an undocumented feature for developers.

If you are using two amps running through an active crossover, then you don't need the eWave crossover. Just make sure you hit the "CD" button on the active. This will give you the bump you need and Z and J have been working so hard on to do in the eWave crossover.

Also documented early in the thread, the Selenium drivers require custom HF compensation on waveguides; generic comp plays them excessively "hot."

Here is a link to the SP12C. It has a high Qts at .62 but a low Xmas at .132 so it would most likely make a good OB but would not stand loud volumes.

AH, the inimitable "missing link" trick....

 

[Vaughn]

While I'm an advocate of subs with nearly everything, the SP12Cs will go deep enough that I think some people would be pleasantly surprised by them. I have two pairs of them in my big EVs and I'm thinking they might make a fine looking MTM ewave at some point in the future.

Yep, that's the one...

I am thinking of doing something that might be considered a little heretical in these parts...

I would like to find a mid-century modern design stereo console in excellent condition and Ewave it! I figure with a little bracing and such, maybe a nice little pp 6bq5 amp or possibly one of the Class D amps I have been playing with in it and these SP12C's might make a nice piece of singing furniture!:yes:

I would like to find one that is long and relatively low so that I get some degree of stereo effect and so that I am also able to put my TV on top. If I cant' find something I may have to build it from scratch.

 

[djnagle]

"Also documented early in the thread, the Selenium drivers require custom HF compensation on waveguides; generic comp plays them excessively "hot."

Agreed, but in a club setting, it might work: depending on the size and absorbsion of the room.

 

[4343]

It's harder than I thought...

I'm betting that's gonna work just fine.... :yes:

Especially if the router won't hold the depth of cut constant. So I have one heck of a pile of sawdust and what look to be a pair of prototype rings, but I'll have to do them again to get it right. So for now I will put in a pair of D131's I have laying around, that's gotta be a first...

I did get a package from PE today, so Ill be soldering up the crossovers ASAP.

Gotta go find the saber-saw to fit the waveguide in. And find some more MDF to finish the rest of the pieces for the cabinets.

 

[jhoyt]

Crossovers are soldered up...
Baffles are cut...

The march of progress!

 

[WopOnTour]

Especially if the router won't hold the depth of cut constant. So I have one heck of a pile of sawdust and what look to be a pair of prototype rings, but I'll have to do them again to get it right. So for now I will put in a pair of D131's I have laying around, that's gotta be a first...

I did get a package from PE today, so Ill be soldering up the crossovers ASAP.

Gotta go find the saber-saw to fit the waveguide in. And find some more MDF to finish the rest of the pieces for the cabinets.

Nice router work 4343!
Hmmm. Given the recommendations that I've seen in this thread it appears it is "desirable" to place the woofer as close to the waveguide as possible. (and as close to the top of the cabinet a possible?)
I'm thinking of trying something a bit different in my "Malibu" 811B/ Waveguide build- is there any forseeable issues having a 12" driver above and another below the horn? I had intended to use BOTH 414 drivers coupled in "2.5" with either the 811 or the QSC waveguide at the top but was thinking "sandwiching" the horn with the woofers might actually create a desirable dispersion pattern? However, on the other hand perhaps it might just be a huge sonic faux pa??

You see my current plan is to have some removable block sections in the front baffle plate to facilitate the ability use/try/test almost any horn up to a 511. (since I have the room) But this would be much easier for me to implement in the middle of the baffle,(as opposed to one end) but can anyone (Zilch? jackjiff, SWR?) see or predict anything negative by having a (12) [H] (12) configuration? (but vertical of course) I dont think I've ever seen a speaker with drivers arranged this way but...
WOT

EDIT- Here's the basic plans for the Malibu. The only difference in my version of the cabs is they are 1" wider so the ID of the baffle will be full 24.25" wide in order to:
a) have sufficient room to mount up to 511B horns and almost anything smaller
b) gain about 0.5 cu ft of volume

 

[4343]

Mostly Faux Pas...

Nice router work 4343!
Hmmm. Given the recommendations that I've seen in this thread it appears it is "desirable" to place the woofer as close to the waveguide as possible. (and as close to the top of the cabinet a possible?)
I'm thinking of trying something a bit different in my "Malibu" 811B/ Waveguide build- is there any forseeable issues having a 12" driver above and another below the horn? I had intended to use BOTH 414 drivers coupled in "2.5" with either the 811 or the QSC waveguide at the top but was thinking "sandwiching" the horn with the woofers might actually create a desirable dispersion pattern? However, on the othe hand perhaps it might just be a huge sonic faux pa??

You see my current plan is to have some removable block sections in the front baffle plate to facilitate the ability use/try/test almost any horn up to a 511. (since I have the room) But this would be much easier for me to implement in the middle of the baffle,(as opposed to one end) but can anyone (Zilch? jackjiff, SWR?) see or predict anything negative by having a (12) [H] (12) configuration? (but vertical of course) I dont think I've ever seen a speaker with drivers arranged this way but...
WOT

Thanks, just practice on scraps, tomorrow is the real wood.

I'd put the horn or WG at the top, maybe in an attached-but-separate box/baffle so you could change it (or at least the front of it).

I did that once with a pair of 2123 10's and a 2345 horn after seeing a Cerwin Vega PA box on the bay done just like that. I built one test box out of scraps and gave it a listen. Granted the horn loaded 10's were physically aligned with the HF driver, but the distances were too great around the HF horn to get any coupling between them. There were HUGE nulls in the vertical pattern, so out came the 10 pound sledge!:thumbsdn: (After removing the drivers of course...) Now I have both tens mounted together with the horn on top, works much better. (I used 2312/2308 + 2405 :thmbsp:and the 2345 is still on the shelf.)

If you make it on a removable/replaceable baffle you can see what it sounds like before committing to the second one. The short waveguide, plus baffle mounted 12's does stand a chance of at least having smaller nulls than the box I trashed...

*EDIT* 2.5 or a "Helper Woofer" would make all the above mostly moot!

 

[Zilch]

You see my current plan is to have some removable block sections in the front baffle plate to facilitate the ability use/try/test almost any horn up to a 511. (since I have the room) But this would be much easier for me to implement in the middle of the baffle,(as opposed to one end) but can anyone (Zilch? jackjiff, SWR?) see or predict anything negative by having a (12) [H] (12) configuration? (but vertical of course) I dont think I've ever seen a speaker with drivers arranged this way but...

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1990-k2-s9500.htm

 

[donprice]

I'd agree if for home use, but he is using them in a club and everyone, including his bass player, will be drunk and high on crack, so what the hey!

The boxes may get some dual use for home studio and live music. The comment regarding crack-smoking drunks was inappropriate. A combinnation of homebrew and meth is much more likely.:thmbsp:

Thanks for the input!

 

[WopOnTour]

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1990-k2-s9500.htm

Hey, Thanks Zilch! However I see from the K2 photos that they were actually 2 seperate enclosures using the horn to facilitate the stack. I guess I could construct 2 partition barriers but that would make the bass cabs quite a bit smaller, given the volume loss for the mid-mounted horn section. Then if I leave it unpartitioned there's the potential "coupling" issue as 3434 describes. How close do the drivers really need to be for optimum performance?

I'm only using FOUR 414s because I have a surplus of them and I thought with the documented inprovement in bottom end (Thanks SWR) using your "2.5" mod WHY NOT? But I think I will shoot for a more conventional alignment such was used in the original Malibu. I have room for the larger cabs in my listening space, so I might as well make them heavier!
WOT

 

[djnagle]

The boxes may get some dual use for home studio and live music. The comment regarding crack-smoking drunks was inappropriate. A combinnation of homebrew and meth is much more likely.:thmbsp:

Thanks for the input!

Sounds like a party to me. If you are using these in home as well, the crossover detailed here really flatline the horn. It is just wonderful sounding and for the cost of admission, you can't beat it. Just make sure your cabs can take the abuse.....hard to keep a methhead down.

 

[Zilch]

I've never built a vertical d'Appolito alignment; RayW knows way more about them than me.

The "0.5" thing I have done, several times, and it seems like a particularly appropriate approach for augmenting 414 bass. It's disconcerting at first that nothing appears to come out of the "helper" woofer, but you can certainly hear the difference switching it in and out.

While there was some debate about how technically correct Skywave's video is when he first posted it, that's very much how it performs, in my experience.... :thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

Burning Amp Last Weekend

Seems Linkwitz rather liked them.

Scroll down to "J" here:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm#J

[In good company.... ]

 

[skywave-rider]

That looks like quite an event. Wish to make it some time. Congratulations!
:thmbsp:

 

[rhubarb9999]

I am thinking about building three of these from scratch to use in a home theater application.

Any thoughts on the Eminence Beta-15A 15" Driver? Or any of the other Eminence Pro 15 inchers?

I'm currently using a JBL 4430 as a center channel (with Carver Amazings for L and R). I like the 4430 a lot and the EWG with a 15" sounds like it will be very close. The 4430 uses the 2235H driver, but I would like to keep the cost down.

Ideas?