Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[jackgiff]

VERY nice form factor, Jack. I've used the 8" in Large Advents and KLH-6 successfully, as well. If it works for you, let's discuss making it an "Official" eWaveguide. :thmbsp:

Haven't tried it yet, but I think the D2500Ti-Nd is a natural mate for those. They're also in you HT, no?

It seems that the 8 inch waveguide needed a little different HF compensation, but that had been worked out. It will be revisited as these are undergoing construction, and then it should indeed be an "official" waveguide.

The HT setup has LE14A's, LE111H's, and when the last pair are done, all three JBL waveguides. All HF drivers are D220Ti's. I keep saying they will be done soon, but other things keep cropping up.

 

[Zilch]

The HT setup has LE14A's, LE111H's, and when the last pair are done, all three JBL waveguides. All HF drivers are D220Ti's. I keep saying they will be done soon, but other things keep cropping up.

Heh!

"Other things" like building MORE eWaves, apparently....

 

[djnagle]

This pair of E'Waves will be for my nephews oldest son, who will start college soon. Woofer will be the 10 inch Pioneer woofer from HPM 60's, with the 8 inch square JBL waveguide and Selenium D210Ti's.

Skywave-rider kindly tested a woofer for me, and gave me the T/S parameters. He is one of the "Good Guys."

Those little things should really rock. Great to get the young'ons into audio. Lucky kid.

 

[rage]

They sound very good in the PE trapezoidal cabs; I'm about to cut in some ports. Yes, the efficiency is low, but the bass is delicious in this size (1.6 CF) box.

A few questions for you:

What did you do about the hump around 1600 hz? Adjust the value of the cap or add a zobel?

How do you like midrange when comparing the 10" and 12" Dayton classics?

I'm getting ready to try those same DC250s in 4.5 cu ft cabs.

Even if I don't stick with these woofers, whats $50? A lot of bang for the buck and if you've got a decent tube amp or solid state the efficiency is no big deal.

I'm really curious to the loss of dynamics or what consequences would be have from using 18-20db of attenuation. I see Wayne isn't too keen on the upper ends of the attenuation.

Running my KP250s (Klipsch industrial heresy) last night on a 1 watt solid state amp reminded just why I like the high efficiency stuff. I did have a sub though.

 

[Zilch]

What did you do about the hump around 1600 hz? Adjust the value of the cap or add a zobel?

I'm nowhere near done with the lowpass. I added a Zobel and adjusted both the cap and inductor to get response suitable for mapping the verticals, which I'll post shortly. I have another trick or two to try.

How do you like midrange when comparing the 10" and 12" Dayton classics?

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to that; mostly swapping in various drivers and determining the forward axis. It's data gathering right now, and not much listening.

I'm really curious to the loss of dynamics or what consequences would be have from using 18-20db of attenuation.

Due to what? I don't perceive any difference....

 

[rage]

I really didn't phrase that well.

My concern is the lack of dynamics of the woofer. I personally haven't heard this phenomenon, just going by what I've been told by a few.

I'd agree the DC-250 is a great sounding woofer for a small cabinet given its low end response. It sounds great in my 1.7~ cu ft cabs right now, just doesn't work real well with single ended low power tube amps.

The plot in WinISD with the DC-250 and 4.5 cu ft is really impressive however, flat down below 30hz. I can't wait to hear it, but will most likely be listening on my Fisher 400 or my Kenwood KA-7100 as they have a bit more power than my little single ended amp.

 

[fastbike]

In cabs that big, why not the DC300. I'm pleased with the sound out of my Mach 1 Ewaves w/ the DC300 in a ~2.4 cu.ft. cab. I'm looking to build a second pair in a bit bigger Trap cab. Will port the trap. May go back to my MAch1 Ewaves and port those as well.

A few questions for you:

I'm getting ready to try those same DC250s in 4.5 cu ft cabs.

QUOTE]

 

[Pio1980]

An update on the Advent/2 Min-E-Waves;
With the Yamaha 690II monitors down and in storage, the subject project speakers are in place in the secondary system centered on a Yamaha CR-1040 reciever, a better sounding unit FWIW than the Pioneer SX-1980 that got me here. Neutral, dimensional imaging, transparent, and excellent resolving ability without the zing-zip top end and somewhat flat aspect of the Pioneer.

Spent the first few days running them in and dealing with a pernicious mystery woofer buzz from a less-than-good past re-surround job. Balanced them by ear off a fave CD, Vangelis "Direct" which I know well. Checked them with pink noise with an ADC RTA and a stray capsule (Why do the calibrated mics that came with these things go missing and where?) and they seem to be reasonably right if not perfect. Interesting that they singly appear to have a response dip that disappears at the listening position measured in pairs. The center of tonal balance sounds about just-right with an assortment of program material with the grille covers in place. For the 1st few days of the process they sounded, well, OK, but nothing special. In the process I dropped one of the stock repaired AR-6 into one channel to work on the bad Advent woofer and was rather suprized over the comparative difference favoring the E-waved junker Advent/2. The AR might have gone a tad deeper but everything else favored the EW. Once analyzed & repaired to a good working pair and the balancing tweaked, the run-in and what-ever else had them making music, real music and not just the music-like noises that speakers typically do. They do seem to be somewhat critical of source material, they don't suffer fools in the engineering and production of typical pop recordings at all well but serve those gladly who know how to actually record sounds properly rather than just making records for profit. Live NPR concert recordings/performances on FM (Yamaha put their best tuner technology in this mid-line receiver) are pretty much all one could reasonably ask, minus the bottom octave which the Yamaha monitors approached with more authority. The Yammys are hard act to follow, I thought I'd miss them more but all I really miss at present is that lower register. Otherwise they are apples and oranges, both delectable in their own right. the E-Ws more so considering the cost assuming a cheap-to-free set of vintage junkers with competent woofers. FWIW, the mid-woofer in the Advent/2 crap-speaker is actually a superb unit and the standard E-Wave cross-over gets the best from it. All in all, a remarkable result.
If you have a pair of these waiting for a bonfire I can highly recommend this mod instead as a cost-effective conversion into a quite nice small-ish bookshelf system that holds it's own with the big boys, except---. If only I could hear a pair of NLA E-Waves in their place here I might find that lower register without compromising the rest.

 

[rage]

In cabs that big, why not the DC300. I'm pleased with the sound out of my Mach 1 Ewaves w/ the DC300 in a ~2.4 cu.ft. cab. I'm looking to build a second pair in a bit bigger Trap cab. Will port the trap. May go back to my MAch1 Ewaves and port those as well.
QUOTE]

If I'm going to a different woofer I hope to find something around 95db @ 1 watt.

 

[Zilch]

FWIW, the mid-woofer in the Advent/2 crap-speaker is actually a superb unit and the standard E-Wave cross-over gets the best from it. All in all, a remarkable result.

If you have a pair of these waiting for a bonfire I can highly recommend this mod instead as a cost-effective conversion into a quite nice small-ish bookshelf system that holds it's own with the big boys, except---. If only I could hear a pair of NLA E-Waves in their place here I might find that lower register without compromising the rest.

Thanks for the update, Pio!

More eWave adventure awaits, I would surmise.... :thmbsp:

 

[Vaughn]

Here, Here!

I've been looking for a pair of those smaller Advents to Ewave and yours look great.

I now have a pair of ULA's and a pair of NLA's that I plan on Ewaving. One pair for my living room and the other for my painting studio. I'm still not sure whether to spend the extra dough for the D2500ti nd or stick with the original D220ti.

I plan on scrapping the ULA cabs and building a new pair as I have some nice 3/4" baltic birch on hand that will do nicely. The NLA's just look too nice in my living room as is to mess with(other than Ewaving:yes.

 

[Zilch]

DE250/QSC/DC250/PE Trap - Round Two

This time with the HF driver connected in inverse polarity, per standard eWave convention, using the highpass components recommended by Jack: C1 = 4 uF, L1 = 0.9 mH. In the lowpass, C2= 15 uF, L2 = 2 mH, and I've added a Zobel, 20 uF with 20 Ohms in series. That part needs more work. Not ported yet:

HF Response and Vertical Directivity: Here is the response of this DE250 on the QSC waveguide mapped at the waveguide axis and +/- 12" mic height at 44" distance, representing angles +/- 15.25°, in 3" (~3.9°) increments. I'm reading +/- 3 dB through the entire span. The waveguide constant directivity pattern is somewhat wider, but certainly well controlled down to the 1.739 kHz crossover frequency within this listening window:

Frequency Response, Crossover, and Minimum Phase: Measured on the forward axis, which is 1.75" below the waveguide center at this distance:

Forward Lobe Map, 15" or +/- 9.67°: About the forward axis, inverse null there, Black; shown realative to the waveguide axis:

Forward Lobe Map, 24" or 30.5°: Quasi-symmetrical about the forward axis which, referenced to the midpoint between the drivers, is tilted upward 4.55°:

Phase: LF = Orange, HF = Cyan, FR Min Phase = Violet. Tracks nicely above crossover; as noted above, the lowpass needs a bit of a tweak to achieve similar performance, also seen in the frequency response:

DC250 is mounted on a speaker ring affixed to the rear side of the baffle, nesting in the stock PE KD trapezoid cab cutout.

A slam-dunk score.... :yes:

[Extra credit: What's our highpass accoustic slope? ]

 

[Zilch]

I'm still not sure whether to spend the extra dough for the D2500ti nd or stick with the original D220ti.

Since you're building two pair now, try both, and tell us your finding(s).

Mechanically, I believe we like the Nd on the smaller waveguides. If you like them better generally, I don't suspect you'll have any difficulty selling D220Tis (or trading for a pair of smaller Advents) here on AK.... :thmbsp:

 

[Spectrum77]

Technics SB-5000 with E/W. Original speaker crossed over at 2000Hz. Generally pleasing sound; perhaps the best of my random E/W matings.
Big problem with boomy bass. Tweeters weren't working, so couldn't test them pre E/W. Will try plugging port / stiffening cabinet / adding dampening material to address boom. Any other suggestions welcome.

 

[juniorJBL]

[Extra credit: What's our highpass accoustic slope? ]

I would not be able to tell you right or wrong because I am still learning this stuff. But if I was to guess........6db maybe even 3db

 

[Zilch]

I would not be able to tell you right or wrong because I am still learning this stuff. But if I was to guess........6db maybe even 3db

How far does it fall between 2 kHz and 1 kHz, a span of one octave?

How about below there?

 

[lico]

Well my QSCs finally arrived today. Problem is I have no time to work with them Maybe in a few weeks

What I am thinking is the cabs I'm showing would be a good fit for the QSCs, they'd drop right in there, cabs are about 2 ft^3, sealed and very solid. I'd pull the mids and tweets and save them for that larger set of Quantums I'll eventually find.

Who knows, as I like the sound of the Emits but have the itch to build another set of an Ewave derivative with these WGs .... haven't kept up with this thread and all the technical details lately....

 

[Pio1980]

Technics SB-5000 with E/W. Original speaker crossed over at 2000Hz. Generally pleasing sound; perhaps the best of my random E/W matings.
Big problem with boomy bass. Tweeters weren't working, so couldn't test them pre E/W. Will try plugging port / stiffening cabinet / adding dampening material to address boom. Any other suggestions welcome.

Forgive a silly question, but are you running the woofs straight from the E-Wave xover with the 5000's xover totally out-of-ckt? Did the original xover have a woofer Zobel (usually a cap in series with a power resistor across the woof)? If so, it may be needed minus the other stuff in the original xover to work right with the E-W.

 

[Spectrum77]

Forgive a silly question, but are you running the woofs straight from the E-Wave xover with the 5000's xover totally out-of-ckt?

Yessir.

Did the original xover have a woofer Zobel (usually a cap in series with a power resistor across the woof)? If so, it may be needed minus the other stuff in the original xover to work right with the E-W.

Have to pull the original X/O to see. E/W X/O used has a Zobel (KPM 100). Schematic:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185752&page=3
Thanks for the input.

 

[fastbike]

How about an EWave homage to Altec Model Fifteen?

Folks,

What do we think about an homage to the Altec Model Fifteen's? I'm thinking about building cabs from scratch and using the DC300 / D220ti combo.
I could also use some advice on port size? Internal cabinet volume ~4.2 cu ft.

Here's a picture of the originals.

Thanks in advance.