Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Russellc]

I believe Augerpro is using the 3012HO. I am a big fan of both the 3015 and 3012HO, and will follow both builds closely...

JSS

Yes, I've been watching them both as well, same basic problem being sussed out. Both ar every interesting projects.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

I think the Dayton DC250 sounds pretty good, however I am running 18db of attenuation as per the charts on some previous page and the horn is still a bit hot.

I think I'm going to try a more efficient woofer, eying the Pioneer 10" paper woofers on PE that are 94db and go down to around 35hz.

Have you been running this HF for a while or is it new? My 220ti and really with the DE 250, I noticed a lot of hot in the begining, after a while it toned down, and setting then changed. the De 250 was so hot I had to turn the L-pad back to about 9 o'clock or so! After a while I'm in the normal range again.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

This pair of E'Waves will be for my nephews oldest son, who will start college soon. Woofer will be the 10 inch Pioneer woofer from HPM 60's, with the 8 inch square JBL waveguide and Selenium D210Ti's.

Skywave-rider kindly tested a woofer for me, and gave me the T/S parameters. He is one of the "Good Guys."

One MUST start college with a decent stereo. Hope he knows what a great uncle he's got! Bravo to the college days and cranked up stereos!

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

I really didn't phrase that well.

My concern is the lack of dynamics of the woofer. I personally haven't heard this phenomenon, just going by what I've been told by a few.

I'd agree the DC-250 is a great sounding woofer for a small cabinet given its low end response. It sounds great in my 1.7~ cu ft cabs right now, just doesn't work real well with single ended low power tube amps.

The plot in WinISD with the DC-250 and 4.5 cu ft is really impressive however, flat down below 30hz. I can't wait to hear it, but will most likely be listening on my Fisher 400 or my Kenwood KA-7100 as they have a bit more power than my little single ended amp.

Those smaller woofers in larger boxes sometimes look good, but may be power limited, make sure you havent gone past its limits with that alignment.

russellc

 

[juniorJBL]

How far does it fall between 2 kHz and 1 kHz, a span of one octave?

How about below there?

Looks like about 16-18 db although I would have thought that was the electrical not acoustic. But now that I think about it it is acoustical because you measure with a microphone not a DVM or anything. I feel kinda dumb for that one.:sigh:

BTW I was looking at the red line in the 2nd graph.

Below that looks to be about 24db maybe more because I can not see the slope to 500hz and it looks like at 600hz 50db it goes straight down.

 

[Vaughn]

Since you're building two pair now, try both, and tell us your finding(s).

Mechanically, I believe we like the Nd on the smaller waveguides. If you like them better generally, I don't suspect you'll have any difficulty selling D220Tis (or trading for a pair of smaller Advents) here on AK.... :thmbsp:

Exactly what I'm thinking, although since I own no test equipment my findings will be purely subjective.

Are you including the original waveguide in the "smaller" waveguide group?

 

[GordonW]

Folks,

What do we think about an homage to the Altec Model Fifteen's? I'm thinking about building cabs from scratch and using the DC300 / D220ti combo.
I could also use some advice on port size? Internal cabinet volume ~4.2 cu ft.

Here's a picture of the originals.

Thanks in advance.

That should kick butt. A 3" diameter vent around 7" should do the job. F3 of 28.6Hz.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[fastbike]

Thanks GordonW

Thanks for the port info. :thmbsp: Looks good.
Think I'll move these up the project list ahead of the Trap cabs.

The Ewaves are definitely addictive.

 

[rage]

The Ewaves are definitely addictive.

They certainly are!


Russelc,

My D220TIs are maybe 6 months old now. Its not a bad match with 18db attn, just a hair hotter than the woofer and I'm not sure that I mind.

You are right, I do wonder if I'll reach the limits of the woofer....oh well, I've only got $50 in them if I trash em!

Maybe I should consider a 12 in the Pioneer woofer, as it gave me the value of 3.9 cu ft by default when I put in the driver specs for the 10.

I tell you, I could sit and swap woofers and screw with this for the next year and be quite happy... Next thing I'll have another set of ewaves and before long it'll be ewaved 7.1.

 

[jackgiff]

Group Buy on BMS drivers?

I mentioned to Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio that there was talk of a group buy for BMS drivers. Here is his answer.

Hello Jack,
I will do the same offer as last time.
IE, 12 pieces or more, single shipping point, single payer, 15% discount.

Regards, Jack

If someone wants to put a group buy together, these terms are the "official stuff." Six pairs sounds like it should be achievable. But the extra freight from the single shipping point to each buyer will maybe eat up the 15% discount.

 

[juniorJBL]

My Mom lives about 10 minutes from there and could possibly ask ere to pick them up. Would have to work out the shipping tho.:scratch2:

I mentioned to Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio that there was talk of a group buy for BMS drivers. Here is his answer.



If someone wants to put a group buy together, these terms are the "official stuff." Six pairs sounds like it should be achievable. But the extra freight from the single shipping point to each buyer will maybe eat up the 15% discount.

 

[Pio1980]

Yessir.


Have to pull the original X/O to see. E/W X/O used has a Zobel (KPM 100). Schematic:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185752&page=3
Thanks for the input.

The KPM-100 directed x-over and Zobel may be part/all of the problem, mebbe go back with the basic E-W xover with what-ever woofer Zobel may have been used with the 5000 x-over.

 

[donprice]

The PH612 waveguides are now backordered at PE until 1/1/10. :thumbsdn:

Has anyone tested the PH818 waveguides? I've got room to use them though I can't reuse the baffle board if decide to go with the smaller PH612 when they come in. I do have the JBL 6x6 units to work with. I'm sure they will look cute on top of a 15.

Regarding the BMS drivers, is there a plan to optimize a specific driver/horn/crossover combo or is it every nut for themselves?

 

[Zilch]

Looks like about 16-18 db although I would have thought that was the electrical not acoustic. But now that I think about it it is acoustical because you measure with a microphone not a DVM or anything. Below that looks to be about 24db maybe more because I can not see the slope to 500hz and it looks like at 600hz 50db it goes straight down.

That's about what I see, and the two filters are not symmetrical, so it's a "hybrid". Looks like 6 dB of summation on axis. We'll get a better idea once I clean up the lowpass.

Thanks for the port info. :thmbsp: Looks good.
Think I'll move these up the project list ahead of the Trap cabs.

Trap cabs are too small to get extended bass out of DC300; DC250 is a better match, looks like, though I haven't cut in the ports yet. Today, maybe. Need a 2" hole saw. DC300's probably fine in a system with a sub. Closed box, the group delay will be better, but if you use 2213(H)/123(A)(-X) or HPM-100, you can get extended bass closed box with derated power handling. Here's my HPM-100 woofer test run; needs tweaking, but sounds good. Same filters, basically, and the crossover frequency came out at just under 1.6 kHz:

The Ewaves are definitely addictive.

Some designers have made constant-directivity 2-ways a lifetime pursuit, and anyone who has built one knows the reason(s) why. It's Don Keele we can thank for starting this, but there are many others who have made it work -- David Smith, Wayne Parham, Earl Geddes, more....

My Mom lives about 10 minutes from there and could possibly ask ere to pick them up. Would have to work out the shipping tho.:scratch2:

It's Dgwojo ran the first one, as I recall, and USPS flatrate boxes were the most economical means of reshipping to participants....

 

[phred593]

BMS group buy...

I have been a lerker for over a year. To pay back all the wonderful work you all have shared (I have learned a lot), I'd be happy to do manage a group buy if needed.

Jack Arnott (Assistance Audio) and I go way back, he is very good friend. We have built many pro speaker project together. I live close by his shop and could get the drivers without shipping costs to a single point. I could then ship them all out to you.

Let me know....
-Kimo

 

[bugs762]

Newbie inductor question.

The inside wire on the air core inductor needs to come up through the middle of the inductor, across the top and down to the board. When coming up through the middle of the air core, does it matter if the wire touches any other part of the inductor on its path to the board, or should the wire be placed to avoid contact with the inductor?

Thanks,
Bugs

 

[fastbike]

I'm not going to use the PE trap cabs. Don't like the recessed front. Also not excited about derated power rating given that many of my amps are pretty strong. Thought I would build my own, larger (~3 cu ft?).

Trap cabs are too small to get extended bass out of DC300; DC250 is a better match, looks like, though I haven't cut in the ports yet.
QUOTE]

 

[Zilch]

The inside wire on the air core inductor needs to come up through the middle of the inductor, across the top and down to the board. When coming up through the middle of the air core, does it matter if the wire touches any other part of the inductor on its path to the board, or should the wire be placed to avoid contact with the inductor?

There is some potential of shorting turns if the the insulation enamel is broken or worn through. Anyone who has tried to scrape it off to make contact knows it's pretty tough, but I always avoid trapping that lead between the inductor windings and a mounting surface such as a PC board. In crossovers mounted inside speaker cabinets, constant vibration could potentially wear it through.

Thus, I always orient such that the lead is on top, and spaced a bit from the coil, or, if it must be on the bottom, drill through the board and bring it out the back. I do recall one instance where I couldn't avoid it, so I insulated between the lead and windings with double-stick foam tape. :yes:

Has anyone tested the PH818 waveguides? I've got room to use them though I can't reuse the baffle board if decide to go with the smaller PH612 when they come in.

Gordon answered this one, I believe:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3226715#post3226715

Regarding the BMS drivers, is there a plan to optimize a specific driver/horn/crossover combo or is it every nut for themselves?

Jack's our eWave crossover designer, and from what he says, he'll likely be working more with BMS drivers. Skywave and I both have and use them, also, so nobody's going to be "on their own" in the entirety of designing with them....

 

[ROSSO]

BMS group buy?

So, if there is sufficient interest:

I believe that a pair of any of the three models under consideration will fit in a USPS Priority Mail FRB1 flat rate box (11" x 8.5" x 5.5"), which costs $10.35 shipped anywhere in the lower 48.

Exclusive of what shipping would be to get them to our point of origin:

4540ND @ $124 ea, less 15% = $105.40 x 2 = $210.80 + $10.35 = $221.15/pr

4550 @ $147 ea, less 15% = $124.95 x 2 = $249.90 + $10.35 = $260.25/pr

4552ND @ $189 ea, less 15% = $160.65 x 2 = $321.30 + $10.35 = $331.65/pr

I'd be in for a pair of the 4550 bolt-ons.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3237936&postcount=8500

 

[Russellc]

They certainly are!


Russelc,

My D220TIs are maybe 6 months old now. Its not a bad match with 18db attn, just a hair hotter than the woofer and I'm not sure that I mind.

You are right, I do wonder if I'll reach the limits of the woofer....oh well, I've only got $50 in them if I trash em!

Maybe I should consider a 12 in the Pioneer woofer, as it gave me the value of 3.9 cu ft by default when I put in the driver specs for the 10.

I tell you, I could sit and swap woofers and screw with this for the next year and be quite happy... Next thing I'll have another set of ewaves and before long it'll be ewaved 7.1.

Yes, those are nice woofs for the money, and should definately be useful for something! Cant have too many drivers!

Russellc