Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[dnewma04]

Right, hence my comment that compensation (CD compensation specifically) will help a great deal. Right now, it has attenuation as you mentioned but is rolling off significantly up top. I'm a little surprised to hear that it showed a lot of promise as is. It'll probably be shockingly good with the proper crossover.

 

[Kegger]

Guy's Guy's, Calm down, I just "tested" the setup with the BR-1 x-over, then posted it so
others could see what I was "starting" with, I built the actual Ewave x-over last night with
the BR-1 board as it is a 2-way second order x-over board and will work just fine for Ewave.
(no big science behind a 2nd order 2-way x-over board, pretty much any board will work)

The posting was more to show that if others maybe have BR-1's they could use the x-over
to build there Ewave x-over with, and it already had the correct low pass coil, that is all!

Today I can compare the old to the new as only 1 is done, then I'll redo the second x-over.

 

[dnewma04]

If nothing else, at least we know that no matter what you do, you will get much better sound than what the original speakers were capable of. Even if you mixed up the high and low pass sections.

 

[Zilch]

Hi, Kegger!

I think we understood that; just wanted to make it clear for readers what was going on, and what the difference is. :yes:

I'm anxious to hear how the modded version sounds in comparison.

[We'll want to see pics of them, too, of course.... :thmbsp: ]

 

[Kegger]

Gotcha Zilch, just want to make sure Russellc is understanding the BR-1 board is what
will be used to build the Ewave version of the xover on and it will work just fine for that.

------------

Alright with 1 xover done and a short listen (a little difficult 1 at a time) the quick answer
is the old xover gives the speaker a bright,screechy sound compared to a smooth sound on
the other Ewave xover'd one, so now the iron warming up to do the other xover for a stereo
listening test.

 

[Zilch]

​

 

[Andyman]

Gotcha Zilch, just want to make sure Russellc is understanding the BR-1 board is what
wil be used to build the Ewave version of the xover on and it will work just fine for that.

------------

Alright with 1 xover done and a short listen (a little difficult 1 at a time) the quick answer
is the old xover gives the speaker a bright,screechy sound compared to a smooth sound on
the other Ewave xover'd one, so now the iron warming up to do the other xover for a stereo
listening test.

Call me up when you get it done; I'd like a listen. It sounds like some of that edginess I was hearing the other night might be cleaned up.

I tried the Altec M19 home built crossover last night on one of the Valencias with the E-wave and wasn't impressed; seemed less full than the 806/811 combo + supertweeter on the other when I rolled the balance control in mono. I could have jacked up the crossover though. It looks like it's right, but it is my first build and I could have wired something wrong. What does that mid control do??

Are you building the 95+ or 95- version for your KPMs? If it's the 95+ version, let's roll it in the Altec and see what happens? Well, the 16 ohm woofer will mess things up, but we could just let it run WO and hope it rolls off before the D210 kicks in
Russels' comments have me quite interested. :yes:

 

[Andyman]

BTW, here's the M19 crossover I based mine on. I'm green as grass at this, so if I screwed up big time, i won't be shocked.
Since I have a 16 ohm woofer, I used a 10 uf cap at C3 ( halved the 8 ohm value) and a couple 2.7 mH coils in Series at L2 (doubled the 8 ohm value), so as far as my limited knowledge goes, that should be OK??? My D210s are 8 ohms, so I left that part alone.

 

[Zilch]

What does that mid control do??

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=128826&#post128826

Jack ran E'Wave on Valencias earlier in this thread. "Search this Thread" and look back to see which filter he used.

Also, look back to Post #1 of this thread where I ran D210ti on E'Wave using M19 XO. 1.2 kHz is too low for the Seleniums, but if you built them correctly and got the adjustments right, they kick 806A/811B butt on the HF.... :yes:

 

[Andyman]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=128826&#post128826

Jack ran E'Wave on Valencias earlier in this thread. "Search this Thread" and look back to see which filter he used.

Also, look back to Post #1 of this thread where I ran D210ti on E'Wave using M19 XO. 1.2 kHz is too low for the Seleniums, but if you got the adjustments right, they kick 806A/811B butt on the HF.... :yes:

You're right on the highs, they were right there with the stock one with the outboard tweeter; that's not the issue. I was disappointed in the mids, so maybe there is a hole between 1200 and where the 210 kicks in, but I thought there were crossovers here that were set of 1200 LF and 3000 HF that had complimentary slopes which reinforced each other?

I did look at your 5th graph in the 1st post and that's what got me going on this build: I had purchased someone's failed kit on eBay loaded with all the right Dayton caps and Jantzen coils from PE, so all I had to do was tweak it for the 16 ohm woofer.

I'll go back and dig up Jack's threads and see what he did and also check out that Lansing Heritage link a bit more.

Thanks!!

 

[Russellc]

Gotcha Zilch, just want to make sure Russellc is understanding the BR-1 board is what
wil be used to build the Ewave version of the xover on and it will work just fine for that.

------------

Alright with 1 xover done and a short listen (a little difficult 1 at a time) the quick answer
is the old xover gives the speaker a bright,screechy sound compared to a smooth sound on
the other Ewave xover'd one, so now the iron warming up to do the other xover for a stereo
listening test.

Gotcha. Ewave on brave soldier! You must be closing in the actual "listen" always an exciting time, and as you've already seen, they dont dissapoint! This has been a really fun and very affordable thread.:yes:

Understood,

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

The compensation circuit should make a huge difference as others have said. A non-generic low pass crossover would also help a great deal, I suspect.

Yes, without RTA thats an area I haven't been comfortable with either. Dont like the "just call it good" situation I have myself in without the equipment.

The crossover is meant as a starting place, and should be adjusted to the driver's response curves, compensated ( zobel, or whatever is needed )if called for or required, and so on. Of course, one needs some sort of RTA to do this with any degree of accuracy.

The Behringer DEQ 2496 and mic are on my short list....my short list is fairly long however.

Russellc

 

[skywave-rider]

You're right on the highs, they were right there with the stock one with the outboard tweeter; that's not the issue. I was disappointed in the mids, so maybe there is a hole between 1200 and where the 210 kicks in, but I thought there were crossovers here that were set of 1200 LF and 3000 HF that had complimentary slopes which reinforced each other?

Jack designed the crossover to work with the unique frequency response of the Selenium driver. When you look at the raw driver response you see a big hump at maybe 2.5 kHz, I forgot exactly. But the filter slopes come in at the right point to tailor that, without the need for an additional filter to flatten the hump. I think that's part of the beauty of this design. And one reason why the Selenium doesn't work right on the m-19.

 

[Andyman]

OK, but this is what encouraged me from the first post.

The scales are inverted (use blue/green for the DT210; DT220 is red/org) and I do get the HF extension vs the 806A/811B combo, but I guess I may be noticing that trough from 2 - 3.8K or so??? Jack shows that the 416Z will run out to 4K un fettered, but I guess there's not much to fill that trough in the M19 system after the LF crossover does its stuff at 1200.

Hopefully, Keggers' crossovers will work in a quick and dirty test if we can fix the low end for a 16 ohm woofer. :yes:

 

[skywave-rider]

Yeah man, I did the same thing as you, because I have 19 x-overs as well. Those x-overs have their own compensation and adjustability, but you see the bump I was talking about.

I'm going to use my M19"Z" versions on BMS drivers which play a lot lower and flatter.

 

[Zilch]

You're right on the highs, they were right there with the stock one with the outboard tweeter; that's not the issue. I was disappointed in the mids, so maybe there is a hole between 1200 and where the 210 kicks in, but I thought there were crossovers here that were set of 1200 LF and 3000 HF that had complimentary slopes which reinforced each other?

Here's 806A/811Bs on the Valencia XO for comparison. I don't recall ever running them on the M19 XO, and I don't have any anymore to do that for you.

In any case, Valencia "Shout" is evident, and it doesn't look like a supplemental tweeter would mitigate it. What am I saying? E'Wave does not have stock Valencia's boosted mids:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1473345#post1473345

 

[Kegger]

With both Xovers done, the speakers sound very very good!

Still need to get them in the basement and on the main system. Outside/canopy area we
are listening near field I'm just not a near feild guy, still they image well and provide a full
frequency response, no edgyness to them at all and have a "hifi" sound to them.

Another interesting aspect after the xovers getting done was less room interaction, before
right channel was always a bit weaker an the balance needed to help that side, I switched
speakers previous to make sure it wasn't one of them but it stayed like that, now they are
dead nuts on center with no balance needed. Bass has improved also with the Xovers!

My L-Pads are at there center position as well, used the 8ohm L-Pads from the HPM's!

More listening to be done but I think we have keepers! (I'll post pic's of the xovers later)
Not bad for a total of $60 spent! Great project guy's, Thanks!

 

[dnewma04]

Congrats, Keg. I'll stop by sometime when you get them in your main system.

 

[Kegger]

I'll let yu know Dave, Your more then welcome to come on by.:thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

Outside/canopy area we
are listening near field I'm just not a near feild guy, still they image well and provide a full frequency response, no edgyness to them at all and have a "hifi" sound to them.

In a PM conversation, member Jsmonroe characterized his (more expensive) PT Waveguide upgrade of Heath AS-10s as having an "Audiophile" sound at moderate levels, but when he cranks them, they, well, "crank!" I don't imagine many AKers have ever heard horns that exhibit less coloration than these waveguides.

Another interesting aspect after the xovers getting done was less room interaction, before right channel was always a bit weaker an the balance needed to help that side, I switched speakers previous to make sure it wasn't one of them but it stayed like that, now they are
dead nuts on center with no balance needed.

That's constant directivity, as we were recently discussing in another thread here. Not only are reflections down at least 6 dB outside of the 90° beamwidth, and progressively even more attenuated at wider dispersion angles, but what reflections ARE contributing to the overall soundfield have the same spectral content as the on-axis response, and do not contribute ambiguity to or smear the image. That's called "Uniform power response."

Play with toe-in to vary the soundfield width, or, as Geddes recommends, go "Extreme" and toe them in 45°, crossfired in front of your listening position, to enjoy possibly the widest sweet spot you have ever experienced. :yes:

Bass has improved as well with Xovers!

You know the drill. Tweak the lowpass to optimize.... :thmbsp:

My L-Pads are at there center position as well, used the 8ohm L-Pads from the HPM's!

Let the record reflect that we would NEVER advocate scrounging parts from HPMs in this thread. :nono:

[That's on YOU, dood...! : ]