• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Russellc said:
Thanks for the info. I have JBL 2225H and 2425H along with the Wayne approved H 290 waveguide from Eminence that I've meant to put together for years. Just couldnt remember the size of the box. I knew the Pi method squeezes drivers into slightly smaller boxes than typical calculation yields.
If Wayne did it that way, I'm sure there is a reason for it, and it probably explains your preference for it!:yes:

Wish I could have attended your fest! Are you planning on Twangfest?

Russellc
Click to expand...

Actually, I think he likes the 2226 in as small as a 2.6 cu-ft cab if I'm not mistaken :yes:. LF in my 3 cu-ft cab is pretty tight and provides a nice mid LF punch. I'm really liking it with upright bass and similar. I haven't tested again (WT3) in cab to see what they are doing but not feeling like I'm lacking in LF at all.

I would love to see you up this way sometime. We had a grand ol' time for sure :music: I'm pretty sure Retro and a few of other fellas are heading down. It's looking a little grim for me unfortunately.

RC
 
doucanoe said:
Actually, I think he likes the 2226 in as small as a 2.6 cu-ft cab if I'm not mistaken :yes:. LF in my 3 cu-ft cab is pretty tight and provides a nice mid LF punch. I'm really liking it with upright bass and similar. I haven't tested again (WT3) in cab to see what they are doing but not feeling like I'm lacking in LF at all.

I would love to see you up this way sometime. We had a grand ol' time for sure :music: I'm pretty sure Retro and a few of other fellas are heading down. It's looking a little grim for me unfortunately.

RC
Click to expand...

Hope it looks up for you so ya can make it, but if not there's always fall if tradition holds. Similarly, I will definitely try to make it to one of yours!

Happy E'waving,
Russellc
 
Last edited:
Russellc said:
A divorce in my house!:D



Russellc
Click to expand...

This is, unfortunately, the stock standard answer to that question, in probably a majority of cases... :D

But, even worse-case... an axisymmetric horn will probably "spray" less reflective sound onto a ceiling and floor than a dome tweeter and small cone mid.

It's all a matter of degrees...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
To me, the height of the vertical forward lobe is the more critical issue.

Seems Brandon and I are about the only ones measuring and posting the actual data.... :dunno:
 
GordonW said:
This is, unfortunately, the stock standard answer to that question, in probably a majority of cases... :D

But, even worse-case... an axisymmetric horn will probably "spray" less reflective sound onto a ceiling and floor than a dome tweeter and small cone mid.

It's all a matter of degrees...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Right, I'm watching this one closely, very interesting this adapting domes to horns/guides. I'm wondering what the sensitivity would be on a typical tweet in the 90 db (without waveguide) efficiency?

russellc
 
Zilch said:
To me, the height of the vertical forward lobe is the more critical issue.

Seems Brandon and I are about the only ones measuring and posting the actual data.... :dunno:
Click to expand...

Agreed, just not everyone is doing this on an ongoing basis, and for them investment in the equipment isnt happening. We had lots of fun in the beginning when only frequency response was being looked at.

I have the software and microphone, cables, and some other tid bits, I'm down to just getting the M-Audio Mobile pre from haveing a measurment system, If I can quit being distracted by DIY PASS amps and pres.

Once Pass is done, the Mobile pre is next. I dont know how acurately this setup I'm putting together will measure, but with various softwares aquired including Bagby's I think it will do what I need. I understand it wont compete with your CLIO, but at least its a start in the right direction.

I have no plans to begin designing head over heels, but I have enough of the drivers used here to play along, and once I've absorbed a bit, might even be able to contribute.

Russellc
 
ecata said:
how many versions of econowave are in this discussion?
Click to expand...

Well....that is hard to say. there are lots of variations on a simple theme. You have 4-5 basic components - the waveguide, the HF compression driver, the crossover, the woofer, and the cabinet. Over a hundred pairs have been built and good luck finding any two that are exactly alike. But most all of them fall into two categories:

The most common version is the "standard" eWave - JBL (or Pyle 612) waveguide, Selenium D220Ti, and the "standard" croossover mated up with an existing woofer and cabinet. Everything else is just trying to improve upon the "standard" version - usually by tweaking it to better match existing hardware.

The major design variant is the "deluxe" version which is more or less the same thing but different. QSC waveguide, B&C DE250 compression driver, and customized crossover. The goal is better performance, which, as expected, comes at higher price point.

Try to not get overwhelmed by by the details. Most of us that have built them only understand a fraction of the science that you can get into here.

Welcome aboard.
 
OK, I got a set of cabs from Andyman the other day and am looking for a project to build into them. They are Infinities and are tall and flat. Inside dimentions are 8" D x 34" T x 13" W. I am figuring about 2 cu ft interior. So add the woofer and the horn & CD and it might be down to 1.5 cu ft or so. They are vary good looking cabs. So the questions are: 1. are the deep enough for the QSC and CD and 2. What would be the good woofer?
 
Russellc said:
Right, I'm watching this one closely, very interesting this adapting domes to horns/guides. I'm wondering what the sensitivity would be on a typical tweet in the 90 db (without waveguide) efficiency?

russellc
Click to expand...

Realistically, the sensitivity doesn't go up much, if any, in real-world terms.

Dome tweeters are already directional in their top octave... the waveguide doesn't really affect their output as much, up there. It's only in the lower octaves, that the waveguide "narrows" the dispersion pattern.

You wind up with something with a response that falls with frequency... down to near driver "normal" SPL levels at 20KHz. The crossover is then designed to "tilt down" the lower end of the driver (less power to the driver proportional to decreasing frequency), until the response is flat across the band.

The BIG benefit, though, is that a dome tweeter that might run out of power handling and excursion at say, 2kHz, can oftentimes operate MUCH lower. IIRC, there was an article in Speaker Builder, where a guy got clean 1KHz out of a run-of-the-mill Vifa or SEAS dome tweeter on a waveguide, flat response with no appreciable distortion increase compared to higher frequencies... if you did an excursion/frequency plot of the tweeter in the waveguide, it really didn't appreciably increase much, until you got below "cutoff" of the horn... which allowed the tweeter to go MUCH lower than usual, before reaching excursion limits and increased distortion conditions...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
GordonW said:
Realistically, the sensitivity doesn't go up much, if any, in real-world terms.

Dome tweeters are already directional in their top octave... the waveguide doesn't really affect their output as much, up there. It's only in the lower octaves, that the waveguide "narrows" the dispersion pattern.

You wind up with something with a response that falls with frequency... down to near driver "normal" SPL levels at 20KHz. The crossover is then designed to "tilt down" the lower end of the driver (less power to the driver proportional to decreasing frequency), until the response is flat across the band.

The BIG benefit, though, is that a dome tweeter that might run out of power handling and excursion at say, 2kHz, can oftentimes operate MUCH lower. IIRC, there was an article in Speaker Builder, where a guy got clean 1KHz out of a run-of-the-mill Vifa or SEAS dome tweeter on a waveguide, flat response with no appreciable distortion increase compared to higher frequencies... if you did an excursion/frequency plot of the tweeter in the waveguide, it really didn't appreciably increase much, until you got below "cutoff" of the horn... which allowed the tweeter to go MUCH lower than usual, before reaching excursion limits and increased distortion conditions...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Gordon, explains it nicely. I guess it doesnt matter so much about the sensitivity If the driver does not roll off on the high end like compression drivers. So you dont need the excessive sensitivity like a compression driver does to make it flat. Interesting.

russellc
 
You guys have got me pulled into trying this now. Just what I need, another project. I ordered some of the QSC horns and picked up some DE250 drivers at Parts Express today. They are well aware of this project and the word is they will be coming out with an econo CD waveguide soon.

Has anyone done any active systems yet? I saw a neat little 40W per channel plate amplifier with built in 2-way active crossover there, seems like that could be adapted for something like this. Will need some EQ to flatten the top end, maybe use it to deepen the bass in the low end, too. I asked for a schematic for the crossover section, I'll see what can be done when they send it.

Another thing I don't really need is another set of speakers, but with all the hoopla about these I need to hear what its all about.

How are you people coming up with all these bargain orphaned large-driver JBL, AR, and Advent cabinets? I looked around on craigslist, thriftshops and the like, not finding anything much except junk (except for a few that the current owners think are worth hundreds of dollars - or has this thread driven up the value of bombed-out Advents, too?!
 
bwaslo said:
They are well aware of this project and the word is they will be coming out with an econo CD waveguide soon.
Click to expand...
It's the #2 most-viewed and most-discussed topic on their Tech Talk forum now, but nobody from PE has contacted me about any of it. Yes, they know who I am.

bwaslo said:
How are you people coming up with all these bargain orphaned large-driver JBL, AR, and Advent cabinets? I looked around on craigslist, thriftshops and the like, not finding anything much except junk (except for a few that the current owners think are worth hundreds of dollars - or has this thread driven up the value of bombed-out Advents, too?!
Click to expand...
Add yard and estate sales plus due diligence, and you'll run into them.... :thmbsp:
 
Last edited:
OK, I've been reading this thread in bits and pieces for a while now and getting a little more into it lately. I may even be starting to understand a small amount though most still floats far over my head.

Here is what I'm thinking of to get my feet wet. Since I have a pair of JBL L100t's I am thing of getting the EW standard kit minus the woofers and the cabs. I will build the crossover and just set the horns on top of the cabs to get a feel for the ewave.

My question is which version of the xover would be best for the 2214H woofer in the JBLs? I would assume the <95 db would be the one but you know how that can go.

Thanks for all the info here. Very interesting even if I can't comprehend much of it.
 
Mmaxed said:
OK, I've been reading this thread in bits and pieces for a while now and getting a little more into it lately. I may even be starting to understand a small amount though most still floats far over my head.

Here is what I'm thinking of to get my feet wet. Since I have a pair of JBL L100t's I am thing of getting the EW standard kit minus the woofers and the cabs. I will build the crossover and just set the horns on top of the cabs to get a feel for the ewave.

My question is which version of the xover would be best for the 2214H woofer in the JBLs? I would assume the <95 db would be the one but you know how that can go.

Thanks for all the info here. Very interesting even if I can't comprehend much of it.
Click to expand...

That woofer likes the 900hz crossover. Go to page 39 and read what Jackgiff measured on it.
 
Zilch said:
It's the #2 most-viewed and most-discussed topic on their Tech Talk forum now, but nobody from PE has contacted me about any of it. Yes, they know who I am.

Add yard and estate sales plus due diligence, and you'll run into them.... :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Trust me they are out there, and Zilch finds them. When I was looking for boxes and complaining, Zilch sent me a craigs listing of JBL cabs (4647) from MY area that I had missed. (thanks again!)

Russellc
 
Last edited:
oldskl said:
That woofer likes the 900hz crossover. Go to page 39 and read what Jackgiff measured on it.
Click to expand...

WOW, that's been a while back! I never used it as I sold my JBL 2213H drivers, but I thought that crossover also used the >95 db compensation parts on the
compression driver? I could be all wrong on that, and it may be different with the DE 250, that original crossover may need altering.

You might consider the 5 element crossover for the latest version, I intend on using bagby's (like Peter did when he designed it) to adapt it to my 2235H drivers. Peter didnt think it would be any trouble to do, I'm sure the same is true for your driver.

Russellc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom