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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Thanks Bauhausler! That's good news. So depth isn't a problem in this case after all.

I just got some bad news, though. My wife forgot until today to tell me that QSC called last week to say the rectangular waveguide is out of stock till end of June (they asked that I call back by last Wednesday or they'd assume I wanted the order cancelled, which I guess they did). So I just now reordered online, guess I'm back at the end of the line now...

They also said the part number will be changing from "PL-000723-TS" to "PL-000722-PN". I don't know what that means, I hope the new one hasn't changed for the worse. I couldn't find anything about this on their web page. Looks like eWavers have depleted the available stock on these.
 
jackgiff said:
The standard <95 dB crossover is the one used, not the one for LE14A's. In this crossover, the 12 uF cap is in parallel with the woofer. The resistor is then hooked in parallel with the woofer and the 12 uF capacitor. It can be connected directly across the woofer terminals, or as in the case of my set, across the 12 uF cap on the crossover board. The resistor needs to be at least 40 watts, if I remember JBL's advice correctly.
Click to expand...

Got it Jack. Thanks again. Had to think about this series/parallel thing a bit. Put my brain in the wiring batteries mode and all became clear as far as the wiring goes. Didn't help a bit as far as understanding crossovers but with the help here I don't need to understand all of it at this point, if ever.

Hope you are looking down the sights of that saw soon.
 
bwaslo,

If you do go to PE for parts, ask to speak with Jeff to tell him about your interest in the QSC waveguide. I did that with him when I bought my pair of Deltalite 2512"s. If enough of us get the message to him, maybe they will add them to their line-up. :thmbsp:
 
Initial tests - Help!

Got my Pyle 612 waveguides and put one of them on top of one of my Advents for comparison testing. The e-wave highs do seem better than the original Advent. But now I am hearing a definite hollowness or lack of presence in vocals, especially female. I would describe it as the fundamental is almost missing and only the harmonics remain. Could this be a result of the 17" center-to-center spacing from waveguide to woofer that this temporary setup has? The listening is close to on-axis about 8 feet away. I don't want to commit to cutting the Advent cabs if I don't prefer the new sound, and currently the original setup is superior.

For the e-wave I am using the generic <95dB 8 ohm crossover with the Peerless 830411 8" 8 ohm woofers that I put in the Advents a few years ago. The crossover is hooked to the woofer and the Selenium D220Ti/Pyle 612 e-wave is on top of the cab. It is wired OUT OF PHASE as that crossover diagram specifies. I tried normal polarity and the sound had more flaws. The non-e-wave Advent still has the original crossover and tweeter with the Peerless woofer.

Would the excessive spacing likely cause the vocal issue, or might the crossover need some tweaking?
 
CraigB said:
Would the excessive spacing likely cause the vocal issue, or might the crossover need some tweaking?
Click to expand...
If you lay the Advents on their sides, you'll be able to reduce the center-to-center distance between the woofers and waveguides considerably and make that determination.

670026/10802=62.0280​
 
Zilch said:
If you lay the Advents on their sides, you'll be able to reduce the center-to-center distance between the woofers and waveguides considerably and make that determination.

670026/10802=62.0280​
Click to expand...

Thanks Zilch, that makes sense, I hope to try that tomorrow!
 
I think they (PE) should give this project some credit.
Ciare has dubbed its 12.00 SW driver 'THE PUNISHER' for instance, due to the succes of the 'diy' Punisher project.
So they should call this horn the Dayton H ECWVE or something. :D
 
I'm considering doing something completely crazy. Even in relative terms to what I usually do.

Imagine a line-E-wave.

Either 7 12" drivers, or 8 10" drivers, vertical line, with a dozen E-wave horns lined up beside them. Cabinets will be just over 7 feet tall.

We need some severely high-output, low-distortion, flat-response main speaker cabs, for the AWA Main Events Room. The company we've hired to bring that system has, for years, been bringing some nice Community horn-loaded 3-way cabs (15" in short horn, horn mid above the woofer horn, and supertweeter mounted coaxially over the woofer horn)... but, given the music that winds up being played for our dance (it's gotten more into hardcore and electronica recently), we need more muscle. I'm thinking of building those monsters (which I would call "Big Black", as opposed to "Big Red" or "Little Red", since I would paint them basic black), and just having the sound company bring two pairs of dual-18" subs, instead of one pair of subs and the one pair of Community horns...

I did the calculation- in theory, at max volume, the speakers I'm contemplating could play at around 127dB at 3 feet, and 112dB 100 feet away from the speakers, Nice thing those lines arrays... only dropping at 3dB per doubling of distance, as opposed to 6dB. They'd be WAY over OSHA and local ordinance limits (which, IIRC, is around 104dB measured in the middle of a room, for our local laws) EVERYWHERE in the room, before they'd have to work hard. And they'd be flat up to right at 20KHz, which the speakers we currently use aren't.

Yes, I know... there will be some comb filtering in the vertical direction. That's the only thing that's making me pause right now. Need to do some experiments, to see how severe it will be, in real-life perception...

EDIT: I'm wondering if THIS horn might work better for this particular purpose:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=292-2576

Narrower width = wider horizontal lobe (with the woofers beside the horns). That, with a 10" woofer, could make for a pretty tight spacing...

I would have considered the alternate JBL flare (the PT-D95HF-1)... but I would doubt they could easily provide me with TWENTY of them (it would take 10 or 11 per cabinet, to fill a 7 foot span)...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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I would build something a bit more modular for sure, you never know what the future brings (changes in the organisation etc..)

+Separate subs tp pressurize the room is no necessity?

{EDIT} When the system in 'my club' are finally up for replacement ( I get to decide what comes in, and it's also lacking dispersion and basswise..) I'll opt for Yorkville U15's around the dancefloor or build ecowaves (depending on the budget at that time), and I really want to build TH's myself (due to VERY gooed experience) for bass extension. And buy a decent DBX processor. The amps in this system will probably never die (believe they're Stage Accompany) so they'll stay.
 
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GordonW said:
I'm wondering if THIS horn might work better for this particular purpose:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=292-2576
Click to expand...
Buy a pair, and I believe you'll find it's asymmetric, as may be seen by looking at the throat and diffraction slot. I have them loaded here, but have not run the polars.

I should be getting to EconoWave HP (high power) here soon, using 2262H, 2432H and PT-F95HF in PE KDTrap cabs. We'll do the crossover with PCD.

There are certainly advantages to the line array approach, particularly if the listening distances are long enough for them to integrate, but the costs get out of hand real quick doing it with compression drivers and waveguides.

Have a look at Keele's CBT work, here as implemented by JBL:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=89&MId=2
 
GordonW said:
I'm considering doing something completely crazy. Even in relative terms to what I usually do.

Imagine a line-E-wave.

Either 7 12" drivers, or 8 10" drivers, vertical line, with a dozen E-wave horns lined up beside them. Cabinets will be just over 7 feet tall.

We need some severely high-output, low-distortion, flat-response main speaker cabs, for the AWA Main Events Room. The company we've hired to bring that system has, for years, been bringing some nice Community horn-loaded 3-way cabs (15" in short horn, horn mid above the woofer horn, and supertweeter mounted coaxially over the woofer horn)... but, given the music that winds up being played for our dance (it's gotten more into hardcore and electronica recently), we need more muscle. I'm thinking of building those monsters (which I would call "Big Black", as opposed to "Big Red" or "Little Red", since I would paint them basic black), and just having the sound company bring two pairs of dual-18" subs, instead of one pair of subs and the one pair of Community horns...

I did the calculation- in theory, at max volume, the speakers I'm contemplating could play at around 127dB at 3 feet, and 112dB 100 feet away from the speakers, Nice thing those lines arrays... only dropping at 3dB per doubling of distance, as opposed to 6dB. They'd be WAY over OSHA and local ordinance limits (which, IIRC, is around 104dB measured in the middle of a room, for our local laws) EVERYWHERE in the room, before they'd have to work hard. And they'd be flat up to right at 20KHz, which the speakers we currently use aren't.
Click to expand...

Whoa! Super wave! I'll be watching this, I assume the waveguide stack Would be constructed first and measured? It will be interesting to see how they interact with each other, I have no idea how constant directivity guides work when "stacked". I assume you probably do! This will be the largest yet, although I believe Ray built a tall line speaker, but it had the waveguide in the middle I think (single) with the woofers above and below.
112 db at 100 ft, that's like fireworks, irresistible! It must be built!:thmbsp:

Russellc
 
GordonW said:
I'm considering doing something completely crazy. Even in relative terms to what I usually do.

Imagine a line-E-wave.

Either 7 12" drivers, or 8 10" drivers, vertical line, with a dozen E-wave horns lined up beside them. Cabinets will be just over 7 feet tall.

We need some severely high-output, low-distortion, flat-response main speaker cabs, for the AWA Main Events Room. The company we've hired to bring that system has, for years, been bringing some nice Community horn-loaded 3-way cabs (15" in short horn, horn mid above the woofer horn, and supertweeter mounted coaxially over the woofer horn)... but, given the music that winds up being played for our dance (it's gotten more into hardcore and electronica recently), we need more muscle. I'm thinking of building those monsters (which I would call "Big Black", as opposed to "Big Red" or "Little Red", since I would paint them basic black), and just having the sound company bring two pairs of dual-18" subs, instead of one pair of subs and the one pair of Community horns...

I did the calculation- in theory, at max volume, the speakers I'm contemplating could play at around 127dB at 3 feet, and 112dB 100 feet away from the speakers, Nice thing those lines arrays... only dropping at 3dB per doubling of distance, as opposed to 6dB. They'd be WAY over OSHA and local ordinance limits (which, IIRC, is around 104dB measured in the middle of a room, for our local laws) EVERYWHERE in the room, before they'd have to work hard. And they'd be flat up to right at 20KHz, which the speakers we currently use aren't.

Yes, I know... there will be some comb filtering in the vertical direction. That's the only thing that's making me pause right now. Need to do some experiments, to see how severe it will be, in real-life perception...

EDIT: I'm wondering if THIS horn might work better for this particular purpose:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=292-2576

Narrower width = wider horizontal lobe (with the woofers beside the horns). That, with a 10" woofer, could make for a pretty tight spacing...

I would have considered the alternate JBL flare (the PT-D95HF-1)... but I would doubt they could easily provide me with TWENTY of them (it would take 10 or 11 per cabinet, to fill a 7 foot span)...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

You may be hamstrung by the great C-C distance between the HF horns, causing lobing, but you won't know until you measure.

CBTs seem like a hell of a way to control directivity.

Also, did everyone get a gander at these for E-Waves?

http://www.parts-express.com/wizard...05-14-2010&utm_campaign=Home+Page+Flash+Panel

JSS
 
I am building some Advent E-Waves and have the adjustable crossovers I asked Zilch about the components I may be able to use, it has to large chokes on the board which one could I use.Could not attach a photo to the PM reply so I have included some in this post.Zilch thanks for the boards and all the help also.:yes:
 

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