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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I have updated the plot in the preceding post and have this additional information:

CDX1-1731 does not fully seat on the Pyle waveguide, leaving a gap of about 1/16". I suspect that may be the source of the notch at 11 kHz. In any case, that does not appear when it's used on the standard JBL eWaveguide, green. You'll either have to shorten the threaded section of the Pyle, or install a gasket washer of the appropriate size to close the gap. Alternatively, contact Celestion to find out if they make a variant with a longer threaded section, or perhaps offer the throat gasket you need.

I was able to achieve relatively flat response using an Altec Model 19 crossover with the HF control set to "Max" and the MF to "Min," blue. This driver clearly requires more HF compensation than our standard Selenium D220Ti. How well my own version of that crossover would work, I could not speculate, as I have never built one.... :)
 
This does not look bad at all... Shorting of the threaded part on Pyle PH612 isn't a problem. Now i have something to work with :) You're the man :music:

Thanks Zilch :thmbsp:
 
GordonW said:
Sounds like the Peerless woofer may have a roll-off of its own, in the crossover region.

With the original Advent crossover (first order), there may not have been enough total phase shift to cause cancellation between the new woofer and the tweeter. With the E-wave crossover, being second order, there's an additional 45 degrees of phase shift... which might be enough to cause a cancellation.

You have two choices- either go back to a first order lowpass (single coil, with or without a zobel) and tune it to work with the Ewave highpass, or tune the Ewave lowpass to work with your woofer. Without measurements on the Peerless woofer, it's hard to say which will work better. A frequency response plot of JUST the woofer in the enclosure, with NO crossover (woofer connected directly to source) would help a lot in diagnosing your problem further...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Gordon, thanks for the input. I finally had time to test some more. I did some FRs with tweeter disconnected, using only the Peerless woofer with the ewave crossover, and it looks like the intended 12dB crossover at 1.6kHz, except for a 3dB bump at 2.5kHz. I then disconnected the woofer shunt cap to try a 6dB low pass. It reduced output 1-2dB from 300-1200Hz, and allowed a 4dB peak at 3200 before dropping fast. On listening, this was no improvement for the recessed vocals. I forgot to try a sweep of the woofer with no crossover. I did test the other e-wave crossover to verify the problem was not a construction one; it tests and sounds the same.

I'm sorry to be asking for advice when I have so little empirical data to offer. For all the l-pad adjustments and polarity swaps I've done, I've gotten every possible change in freq response, but the recessed vocals never change, so I can't say WHAT freqency range is the problem.

The unmodified Advent produces a lot more of the vocals with the woofer compared to the econowaved one. If I turn the ewave l-pad up until the vocals begin to get a sibilant edge, the vocals are better but still recessed compared to the original. Sitting in normal listening position with both spkrs playing, the vocals appear to completely come from the left channel, that's how much more prominent they are from the original Advent.

I'm thinking about using the Advent's single small coil for the low pass and the econowave 12dB hi pass, but wouldn't that have too much overlap? I think the econowave was spec'd as 12dB at 1.6kHz low pass and 12dB at 3kHz hi pass.
 
Zilch said:
The lowpass inductor in large Advent (1.6mH) and eWave (1.5mH) are essentially interchangeable.

Looking that up here:

http://baselaudiolabs.googlepages.com/ADVENT_LA_XO.html

I also see that the larger of the two inductors in the 5002 crossover is 0.6mH, and may be used for the smaller one in eWave.... :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Zilch, my Advents are a little different, not sure but I think they are called Prodigy II, they have 8" woofer, dome tweeter, and 5 and 13 mfd caps on the tweeter, and one unknown small coil each on tweeter and woofer. Regardless, I made the generic Jack Giff 3/18/08 <95dB crossover linked from 1st page. I'm not experienced at tweaking by ear and lack the measurement gear you guys are used to. Not sure if I should replace cap and coil on low pass to try a higher freq 12dB, or use only some particular single coil for a 6dB?
 
Ph515

Well, the Dayton version of the econowave "standard" waveguide is now listed as "Out of Stock - Awaiting Updated Due Date", and the waveguides I ordered from QSC aren't expected till the end of the month. So, having recently bought a pair of DE250 CDs I stopped in at Parts Express today and picked up one of the Pyle PH515 "screw on/bolt on" 12 inch x 8 inch "constant directivity" waveguides. It is by nature bolt-on, but they include a bolt to screw-on adaptor.

Opening the box it looked like trouble -- the taper looked exponential-like rather than conical-like. It measured like that too. Odd to measure a tweeter on axis without EQ and be unhappy because the response is more or less flat, but so it is. Curves below are response with respect to terminal voltage. Top plot is the on axis along with horizontal 22deg and 45deg off-axis (approximate in all cases, this was just a quick check). Bottom plot is on axis with vertical 15 degree off-axis. Not constant directivity, at least not above 5kHz or so. On the plus side, it has decent output down to 800Hz or so, though. So, I guess this one goes back and I'll wait for one of the econowave guides to arrive (and buy some screw-on CDs, too).
 

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Question about waveguide and woofer spacing, the advent cabinets I have are the 5002s and I wanted to keep the grills intack but if I do that the horn is right on top of the woofer should I forget about the grills and move up the waveguide or does it matter how far they are spaced I have about a 1/4 of an inch spacing from the woofer to the waveguide.The grills are mint and I have kids and cats.:D
 
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my parts express waveguides are now pushed back to July 23! MCM claims to have ph612s in stock, so I will give them a shot.

The other parts arrived today. I am impressed by the build quality of those Selenium horn drivers. Can't wait to give them a listen.
 
donprice said:
I used the Kappalite 3015. http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3483978&postcount=9857

I can't say it is the best but it has no problem going high enough or loud enough, but really doesn't go low enough to get by without a sub (for home theater anyway). The Deltalite II 2515 looks fine for a few $ less.
Click to expand...

Does anything else work that doesn't need a sub? I know Eminence makes LF versions of most of their woofers on PE but those all have significantly worse HF extension, understandably.
 
AE Speakers among others come to mind...very good and very pricey...on a budget? think the 2.5 route ie JBL JRX 125 style...:scratch2:
Sir.Byrd said:
Does anything else work that doesn't need a sub? I know Eminence makes LF versions of most of their woofers on PE but those all have significantly worse HF extension, understandably.
Click to expand...
 
JoMoCo said:
On a budget? think the 2.5 route ie JBL JRX 125 style...:scratch2:
Click to expand...
When we were designing the Deluxe and Delite 12, there was discussion about doing 2.5 with Eminence drivers. I forget the details, but the answer is in the "Flex your Mettle" thread on PE Tech Talk.... :yes:
 
Sir.Byrd said:
Does anything else work that doesn't need a sub? I know Eminence makes LF versions of most of their woofers on PE but those all have significantly worse HF extension, understandably.
Click to expand...

A mid-bass is a mid-bass....

Pick your poison - the 1" horn doesn't go low enough - or - the 15" doesn't go high enough - or - the 15" doesn't go low enough - or - or the efficiency isn't high enough - or - it doesn't fit the budget :tears:

You mentioned PA use. ~40Hz might work just fine for you so don't give up on it until you have run a couple of models to see what kind of bottom end you can expect.
 
badman said:
A mid-bass is a mid-bass? Are you saying that midbass quality is irrelevant?

I strongly disagree.
Click to expand...

No, I think he is saying just the opposite. The point is, some are more efficient than others, some do low bass better, some are more even around the crossover frequency. You picks your choices and you pays your money.
Then, the anomolies are dealt with for that particular driver.

Frankly, I dont think anyone interested in speakers, especially those here are going to think "Midrange doesnt matter" or high freq doesnt, or low doesnt, that's all. If I'm wrong donprice, speak up and correct me!:D

russellc
 
anybody ever ewave a set of cornwalls? I just picked up a set of cornwall cabinets with the 15" klipsch woofers in them. Grills are gone and cabs have had some minor cosmetic repairs done. I already have the entire ewave xover,horn,driver ready to go. If I am lucky, I'll get it installed tonight.

Can't wait!
Pics to follow.
Mark
 
badman said:
A mid-bass is a mid-bass? Are you saying that midbass quality is irrelevant?

I strongly disagree.
Click to expand...

No, I meant a mid-bass (15" pro woofer in this case) is going to be compromised on the very low end. Of course there are exceptions...

No absolutes in audio...I must remember to avoid absolutes.
 
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