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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

CraigB is attempting to eWave what he believes to be Advent Prodigy II with non-stock 8" Peerless 830411 woofers. We don't know what the Advent tweeters are, other than "small fabric dome." :dunno:


dumptruck said:
Hmmm....
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Did you assemble that, or is it a page on their website?

[If so, link us, please.... :) ]


rage said:
I have some of the small advent woofers that need new foam if you need a set.
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"Smaller Advent" woofers?

"Spitwads?"

[Let's not be givin' those away 'til we build with them.... :nono: ]

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1650738#post1650738
 
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Russellc said:
Right. JBL 2226H isnt much cheaper. I paid around 200 for 2225H, and another 400 to recone to 2235H, so they sound like a bargain to me! I just cant make up my mind if I want 15 inch or 12 inch:scratch2:

Yes expensive compared to some of the more Econo boxes done here, but still Econo comparing what you end up with, and what its comparable to what's for sale on the open market ready made.

russellc
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Indeed, 2226h isn't a cheap woofer, and not really as good as the lambdas from a paper perspective (I haven't played with the lambdas, though they seem superb). 2226h is nice in that you can find them cheap as pulls from PA systems, and in that it has a very nice self-filtration characteristic. I'm currently designing around them using a notch filter tuned to 3k and a zoebel, it gets a very nice 24dB rolloff from a flat 1500 to a -24 (more like 36 but it pops back up a few hundred hz later) at 3k Above the notch the woofer is well enough damped to not be an issue.

Values are: 40uF 8 ohm zoebel, .47mH 5uF notch.

Well suited for the Ewave horn.
 
gcarlberg said:
Mark,

I have a set of 15" Utahs out of Seeburgs that your welcome to play with and see if they'll work for you.

George
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Hey George,
Thanks for the offer. Did you ever get that speaekr measureing thing from PE working? If so I would love to see what the TSP's are for your utahs and for the CTS I have.

I would like to take you up on your offer.

Mark
 
Mmaxed said:
I know exactly how you feel Craig. I have been doing the same thing with a set of JBL L100Ts. I used the same xover as you with Jack's mod of the resistor across the woofer for the 2214h. So far by far the biggest improvement has been removing that resistor. Really opened up the vocals. But as you noted it still sounds hollow.

I have been listening to this setup for a few days. It does many things very well. Dispersion is great. The drum set can be in the middle of the TV. Very clean and detailed mids and highs. Some harshness or roughness, but less than any other speaker in the house. May be something in the electronics.

Last night for a sanity check I played these speakers and the 901s without the Bose EQ so that the 901s are just playing mostly midrange. Now the 901s are a little more efficient but WOW. I hadn't realized how much was missing when doing AB comparisons.

I admit that I like a full, rich warm sound. Harshness or bright kill my ringing ears. While the Ewave has huge potential to be what I want this combo isn't there yet.
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Thanks, I hoped I wasn't the only one with troubles. There have been moments when the econowaved Advent sounded better to me than the stock one, once on a sax solo and once on some percussion.
 
Russellc said:
It doesnt even come close, to my ears. Something isnt right with the e'wave setup,
IMHO, or the original poster just prefers it for whatever reason, which is certainly their right.
Russellc
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I'm not sure what else to try or to check. I've swapped crossovers (I built the pair) and they sound the same. I had the waveguide within a couple inches of the woofer (cabinet on its side). I tried moving the waveguide forward until its voicecoil was aligned with the woofer's. I'm pretty sure I swapped compression drivers. I took a lot of freq resp graphs with my dB meter and test tracks, but I have to do it on graph paper.. :drool:

As for sound preferences, I've always liked the dynamic, effortlessly loud sound of horns, even though they often had a colored sound, which I overlooked. These have have some of those horn colorations, but not too bad. But my real letdown was comparing the highs - for instance, on one well-recorded track, with the Advent I could immediately tell I was hearing a brushed cymbal and a tamborine, but on the econowave, it sounded like one instrument. I found that same effect on several different disks. This was true on and off-axis.

The vocal issue makes it seem as if the singer has taken 3 steps back. I really tried to discern if I was just used to the Advent's midrange, but it has to be right - there are too many places where I can understand the words with the Advent and can't with the econowave - and it doesn't seem right that unintelligible should be correct... but I'm 50 and maybe I need a vocal boost? :scratch2:

I really wanted these waveguides to work out, maybe I will leave the Advents intact and build the DC300 standard ewave and then do a shootout? :smoke:
 
I take it you liked those Small advent woofers Zilch? I pulled them out of some rough cabs, put some cheap woofers in them and gave those away. The small Advent woofers have been waiting for me to find the right surrounds, but I will do something with them eventually. They are the same ones you did, the "spit wad woofers."

CraigB - I'd try swapping the phase of the tweeter. Also if you look at the Kegzilla build he put some low density foam in the mouth that helped with the sizzle of the top end of the Selenium compression drivers.

Are you using all original crossover in your Advent-ish speakers?

I would try a few things... I'd actually complete the other speaker and give them a chance listening in stereo to both to get started. I'd work with the l-pad and try some different positions. I'd try and figure out a zobel for the woofer and I'd also maybe experiment with the compensation cap, I believe .47 is the value used in the original crossover. I'm running a .22 with the BMS drivers as higher values where just a bit too hot for my liking.

The tweeter/crossover setup in the original-ish speaker may be crossing over at a different point. Is there an inductor on that speaker? Are you sure they are 8 ohms and not 4?

I eventually broke down and got a measuring mic and mic processor. I think I spent ~ $150 for the setup. With that tool I was able to get a bit closer to my liking without so much guess work. Next up for me is a woofer tester so I can measure the impedance and hopefully get a bit better at dialing in the woofer circuit.
 
CraigB said:
I'm not sure what else to try or to check. I've swapped crossovers (I built the pair) and they sound the same. I had the waveguide within a couple inches of the woofer (cabinet on its side). I tried moving the waveguide forward until its voicecoil was aligned with the woofer's. I'm pretty sure I swapped compression drivers. I took a lot of freq resp graphs with my dB meter and test tracks, but I have to do it on graph paper.. :drool:

As for sound preferences, I've always liked the dynamic, effortlessly loud sound of horns, even though they often had a colored sound, which I overlooked. These have have some of those horn colorations, but not too bad. But my real letdown was comparing the highs - for instance, on one well-recorded track, with the Advent I could immediately tell I was hearing a brushed cymbal and a tamborine, but on the econowave, it sounded like one instrument. I found that same effect on several different disks. This was true on and off-axis.

The vocal issue makes it seem as if the singer has taken 3 steps back. I really tried to discern if I was just used to the Advent's midrange, but it has to be right - there are too many places where I can understand the words with the Advent and can't with the econowave - and it doesn't seem right that unintelligible should be correct... but I'm 50 and maybe I need a vocal boost? :scratch2:

I really wanted these waveguides to work out, maybe I will leave the Advents intact and build the DC300 standard ewave and then do a shootout? :smoke:
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I guess that while our experiences are similar they are not the same.

But my real letdown was comparing the highs - for instance, on one well-recorded track, with the Advent I could immediately tell I was hearing a brushed cymbal and a tamborine, but on the econowave, it sounded like one instrument.

The Ewaves make almost everything clearer and more distinct for me. Not always a good thing if the recording wasn't great. Same thing on vocals. Once I removed the resistor and got the vocals back out front they are very clear. The JBLs are a pretty clear speaker, the tweeter just kills my ears. The Ewaves are even more revealing for me. Maybe it's because they are easier on my ears.

I really wanted these waveguides to work out, maybe I will leave the Advents intact and build the DC300 standard ewave and then do a shootout?

Exactly what I am planning. I am looking for some cabs to put the Ewaves and DC300s in. May just order the trap cabs but they don't do much for me. May build some but I am lazy.
 
jackgiff said:
That 10 dB rise from 1KHz to 2Khz might just be a trouble maker for you, since it is centered around the crossover frequency.

But why not give them a try? A simple Zobel may make them super.
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I can't open the spec sheet. My computer and pe aren't playing to well.
I know what a zobel is, but I haven't a clue how to spec, design, or install one. I know it is an rc filter.

Mark
 
Well, my own thread didn't go anywhere so I'm trying it here:
Hey Zilch! What do you think I should do for a new e-wave woofer to have the maximum bass extension (in a custom cabinet of whatever size necessary), for around $110/woof or so?
 
dumptruck said:
Hey Zilch! What do you think I should do for a new e-wave woofer to have the maximum bass extension (in a custom cabinet of whatever size necessary), for around $110/woof or so?
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Most of what's been built with extended bass has used vintage woofers. In new ones, eWavers like the DC300. Much of what I've been doing lately has been higher efficiency with pro drivers for use with subs.

I guess I'm saying I don't know. Gordon or others may have some ideas.... :dunno:
 
Zilch said:
Most of what's been built with extended bass has used vintage woofers. In new ones, eWavers like the DC300. Much of what I've been doing lately has been higher efficiency with pro drivers for use with subs.
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Alright, that was exactly my impression, but it seemed more than a little bit likely I missed something. The pro drivers plus sub approach makes a lot of sense, but not something that works for me at the moment. I know it is pushing some limits to have this sort of 2-way go deep without messing everything else up, but I'm willing to experiment on a promising suggestion... P.S. I have no shortage of power.
 
I got the JBL 123A-1 woofers, they're in pretty good shape. A few small spots had been daubed long ago with white paint, but the cone hadn't been punched through (nothing showing on the backs of the cones) I guess it was just covering up cracks in the coating maybe.

Now I just have to sit tight until a router I ordered meanders its way to my door. It must have been shipped by slow sea turtle express....

So, what's the best waveguide/driver combo to use with this? The PE/Pyle 6x12 or the big QSC (when it arrives)? I'll probably still make the smaller waveguide with 4 each 5.25" Dayton drivers in the trap cabinets, just to see if it works and so I can show it to the people at PE. So for the JBLs I either have to make a new cabinet (ugh), modify the Advent cabinet and use that, or come up with yet another cabinet.

The guy I got the 123A-1 drivers from has a room full of neat old speakers (some ESS, EV, Wharfedale, JBLs, Altec -- the place was like an audio museum, fun to look thorugh) but nothing empty or cheap enough. He's going to scout around to see if he can find some cabs that might work for me for ewaving.
 
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I tried them rear-mounted in the PE Trap cabs with QSC waveguides earlier in the thread. I've never gotten around to using bolt-on Seleniums with that combo, but it's on the list.

I need to make up some spare baffles to try out different combos; not messin' with my Standards or Deluxes.... :nono:
 
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