truth seeker
Member
We will show PE within a month that they want to source the QSC 152i. 
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Well folks, I finished testing the set up. The cornwalls woofers/cabinets with hthe ewave xover. There is definately a hole in the sound. I thnk the woofer falls off considerably lower than I had hoped. I am driving this set up with an el84 pp tube amp. The amp makes my real cornwalls sound incredible.
I guess it is time to hang up my hat or look at spending some bucks on a set of woofers.
I was experimenting and found something interesting. I took a 3.6uf cap(IIRC) and added it to the crossover. I put it between the positive input, and the positive output for the ewave driver. It gave the highs a very defined sound. Made it just a little crisper.
So, what did I do to the crossover?
Mark
Disappointed - taking a break
I'm canceling econowaving my Advents for now. For the past month I set up the right Advent as the econowave and the left Advent remained stock (except both have been updated with a Peerless 8" woofer). So far I've tried the generic econowave crossover built as specified, then modified by removing the low pass shunt cap, and then bypassing the low pass completely, each setup tried with both tweeter polarities and numerous L-pad adjustments. Using the same mono signal for both, and switching between left and right, the econowaved version never has the natural presence in vocals that the stock one has. I swapped woofers to verify they were the same. Also the highs are never as natural, which really disappointed me, as I wanted to love the waveguides. Its hard for me to believe that these old Advent tweeters are superior. I think there is more work to be done in the econowave crossover, and its currently beyond my abilities to do it. Luckily I didn't cut on the cabinets yet. I'll keep the PH612/D220Ti boxed up, and if a woofer/crossover combo for them is tested and proven to sound great, I'll put them with that.
This has been a learning experience - a few years ago I would have just built the econowaves without comparing them to the originals, and would have convinced myself that they were better.
I'm canceling econowaving my Advents for now. For the past month I set up the right Advent as the econowave and the left Advent remained stock (except both have been updated with a Peerless 8" woofer). So far I've tried the generic econowave crossover built as specified, then modified by removing the low pass shunt cap, and then bypassing the low pass completely, each setup tried with both tweeter polarities and numerous L-pad adjustments. Using the same mono signal for both, and switching between left and right, the econowaved version never has the natural presence in vocals that the stock one has. I swapped woofers to verify they were the same. Also the highs are never as natural, which really disappointed me, as I wanted to love the waveguides. Its hard for me to believe that these old Advent tweeters are superior. I think there is more work to be done in the econowave crossover, and its currently beyond my abilities to do it. Luckily I didn't cut on the cabinets yet. I'll keep the PH612/D220Ti boxed up, and if a woofer/crossover combo for them is tested and proven to sound great, I'll put them with that.
This has been a learning experience - a few years ago I would have just built the econowaves without comparing them to the originals, and would have convinced myself that they were better.
rage
Well-Known Member
CraigB: are you listening off axis or on? What caps are you using in the crossover?
I've heard the small Advent tweeter and was impressed but didn't think it compared to the Selenium220/PT Waveguide.
I'd cut a set up in a heartbeat.
I have some of the small advent woofers that need new foam if you need a set.
I've heard the small Advent tweeter and was impressed but didn't think it compared to the Selenium220/PT Waveguide.
I'd cut a set up in a heartbeat.
I have some of the small advent woofers that need new foam if you need a set.
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
I'm well familiar with the Large Advents, having owned at least 5 pairs. I've Ewaved OLAs (Make Magazine issue #20), ULAs and NLAs and each time I felt the sound was an improvement over the stock tweeter. I'm a big fan of the Advent woofer but I just don't like the sound of the stock tweeter nearly as well. For me the improved dispersion of a waveguide was a big plus, but that's installation dependent. I have 8 Seleniums on hand and a bunch of waveguides on order so I'll probably be doing a few more conversions.
2 people have told me that ewaves seemed to have a poorer 'soundstage' than conventional horn speakers. I think this is probably due to a wide listening window versus many horns' narrow beam and locked-in seating position.
Good to know, as I have been waiting for the Peavey to be available. I just looked for it today and only see the Dayton. Guess I can order my parts now.
Rob
CraigB: are you listening off axis or on? What caps are you using in the crossover?
I've heard the small Advent tweeter and was impressed but didn't think it compared to the Selenium220/PT Waveguide.
I'd cut a set up in a heartbeat.
I have some of the small advent woofers that need new foam if you need a set.
On and off-axis, the vocal problem remains. This Advent tweeter is a small fabric dome. I don't have the original Advent woofers anymore...
I haven't even focused on imaging and soundstage yet, because the vocals problem is top priority to me. I'm not sure which Advents these are, maybe Prodigy II? They are 22x13x8.5", with a small dome tweeter, 8" woofer.
To answer rage's question on the caps, they are a 4.7 and a 12 as spec'd in the generic <95dB crossover linked on p1 of this thread, whatever brand PE had that matched the specs...
I have heard this many times. But jiminycrickets - $600 plus for a pair??
That is kind of defeating my purpose of builing these. Excellence on the cheap is my goal.
I know exactly how you feel Craig. I have been doing the same thing with a set of JBL L100Ts. I used the same xover as you with Jack's mod of the resistor across the woofer for the 2214h. So far by far the biggest improvement has been removing that resistor. Really opened up the vocals. But as you noted it still sounds hollow.
I have been listening to this setup for a few days. It does many things very well. Dispersion is great. The drum set can be in the middle of the TV. Very clean and detailed mids and highs. Some harshness or roughness, but less than any other speaker in the house. May be something in the electronics.
Last night for a sanity check I played these speakers and the 901s without the Bose EQ so that the 901s are just playing mostly midrange. Now the 901s are a little more efficient but WOW. I hadn't realized how much was missing when doing AB comparisons.
I admit that I like a full, rich warm sound. Harshness or bright kill my ringing ears. While the Ewave has huge potential to be what I want this combo isn't there yet.
I have been listening to this setup for a few days. It does many things very well. Dispersion is great. The drum set can be in the middle of the TV. Very clean and detailed mids and highs. Some harshness or roughness, but less than any other speaker in the house. May be something in the electronics.
Last night for a sanity check I played these speakers and the 901s without the Bose EQ so that the 901s are just playing mostly midrange. Now the 901s are a little more efficient but WOW. I hadn't realized how much was missing when doing AB comparisons.
I admit that I like a full, rich warm sound. Harshness or bright kill my ringing ears. While the Ewave has huge potential to be what I want this combo isn't there yet.
Russellc
Addicted Member
Russellc
Addicted Member
It doesnt even come close, to my ears. Something isnt right with the e'wave setup,
IMHO, or the original poster just prefers it for whatever reason, which is certainly their right.
I'm with you rage, I'd saw them up and E'wave if they were mine.
Russellc
Russellc
Addicted Member
I'm with you, and I find they Image better than the other vintage horns I've had on hand, except maybe 2344A. Perhaps their imaging problems are related to less than ideal woofer "melding" b/c of the crossover not being fully optimized to the woofer used? Or do you mean E'waved Advents vs. stock Advents?
Russellc
Russellc
Addicted Member
Russellc
Addicted Member
Right. JBL 2226H isnt much cheaper. I paid around 200 for 2225H, and another 400 to recone to 2235H, so they sound like a bargain to me! I just cant make up my mind if I want 15 inch or 12 inch:scratch2:
Yes expensive compared to some of the more Econo boxes done here, but still Econo comparing what you end up with, and what its comparable to what's for sale on the open market ready made.
russellc
rage
Well-Known Member
A few things I've noted.
Some vintage horn speakers have that fat vocal thing going on. It can sound really nice with female vocals and such, but isn't accurate.
If you are used to speakers that aren't accurate the e-wave will be a big change. If you go listen to some real studio monitors you'll get a sound that is closer to the final product with the e-wave.
The other thing of course is measuring what you have. A few of my builds I've implemented a zobel to get rid of some of the woofers issues. With the dayton classic 10" there was a huge peak from 1500-2k that really had a big impact on the sound. Once I implemented the zobel that flattened out and they where like different speakers.
My listening experience with the Large Advent fried egg tweeter was a bit of harshness compared to the e-wave. The smaller Advent tweeter seemed a little less harsh and worked pretty well for a set of vintage speakers, but IMO you get to the next level moving to the e-wave.
With regards to soundstage and imaging, I'm finding I like a 12" better than a 10". I'm also running BMS compression drivers now, so hard to compare, but my imaging is pretty awesome with a Forte 12" woofer and BMS compression drivers with basically the stock e-wave crossover for > 95db.
On those cornwalls look at the rings Zilch was using and find a good 12" to put in there!
Some vintage horn speakers have that fat vocal thing going on. It can sound really nice with female vocals and such, but isn't accurate.
If you are used to speakers that aren't accurate the e-wave will be a big change. If you go listen to some real studio monitors you'll get a sound that is closer to the final product with the e-wave.
The other thing of course is measuring what you have. A few of my builds I've implemented a zobel to get rid of some of the woofers issues. With the dayton classic 10" there was a huge peak from 1500-2k that really had a big impact on the sound. Once I implemented the zobel that flattened out and they where like different speakers.
My listening experience with the Large Advent fried egg tweeter was a bit of harshness compared to the e-wave. The smaller Advent tweeter seemed a little less harsh and worked pretty well for a set of vintage speakers, but IMO you get to the next level moving to the e-wave.
With regards to soundstage and imaging, I'm finding I like a 12" better than a 10". I'm also running BMS compression drivers now, so hard to compare, but my imaging is pretty awesome with a Forte 12" woofer and BMS compression drivers with basically the stock e-wave crossover for > 95db.
On those cornwalls look at the rings Zilch was using and find a good 12" to put in there!
