Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[MunkeyQ]

Anyone who says that there is break in period with compression driver, that has Ti, Al or Be diaphragm, got to be kidding The only thing that does break in with these are ears/brain.

With conventional bass speakers it is the case, but not with compression drivers...

It sounds great immediately because of well damped chamber and good xover :yes:

With usage though, the suspension has a tendancy to work harden, which changes its sound considerably. I've only observed that effect with drivers who have worked their entire lives at very high level though.

 

[jhoyt]

The characteristics of flexing metal change over time. I know. I deal with it daily at work. But in a compression driver the break-in is relatively negligible compared to the change in the capacitors; but it is real.

 

[golana]

I added a heavy weight felt, to the center chamber. With Duct Seal, impacted to all the outer areas. This is to 2 years running, (I think 2, near two+/_), 220 Sel. Didn't hear a bit of difference.

 

[gcarlberg]

This represents the peak of my two year journey into ewave building and testing. I have built a total of 8 pairs starting with JBL L16’s and culminating with JBL 2235’s using all three of the JBL waveguides and finally the QSC.
The cabinets are salvaged Altec 9984 with the original baffle covered with a sheet of ¾ MDF and a sheet of ½ birch ply routed to flush mount the JBL 2235’s, reconed by the local authorized dealer.
Currently these are running bi-amped thru a Pioneer SF-850 crossover without the advantage of the notch filter. I mimicked the layout of 4430’s with the intent to install a Z-19 crossover aligning the l-pads vertically with the ports.
Attached response curves; blue = 2235 nearfield, red = B&C250 nearfield, green = combined @ 44 inches.
I couldn’t have made this journey on my own, so thanks to all those whom have contributed and especially our former instructor/mentor.
Currently I’m trying to master the PCD template so I’m not sure what’s next.
George

 

[foofighter]

The characteristics of flexing metal change over time. I know. I deal with it daily at work. But in a compression driver the break-in is relatively negligible compared to the change in the capacitors; but it is real.

I bet you five bucks that you can't make a difference between new D220Ti and the one that has worked for longer period of time, in blind test My claim is from personal experience with compression drivers and i'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. My opinion, that's all...

What MunkeyQ said is true though. It does change its caracteristics if exposed to very high level of power but that is not "break in" in sense of getting smoother sound by period of time. Different it may be, but smoother sounding... not by me

 

[DonQuixote99]

This represents the peak of my two year journey into ewave building and testing. I have built a total of 8 pairs starting with JBL L16’s and culminating with JBL 2235’s using all three of the JBL waveguides and finally the QSC.
The cabinets are salvaged Altec 9984 with the original baffle covered with a sheet of ¾ MDF and a sheet of ½ birch ply routed to flush mount the JBL 2235’s, reconed by the local authorized dealer.
Currently these are running bi-amped thru a Pioneer SF-850 crossover without the advantage of the notch filter. I mimicked the layout of 4430’s with the intent to install a Z-19 crossover aligning the l-pads vertically with the ports.
Attached response curves; blue = 2235 nearfield, red = B&C250 nearfield, green = combined @ 44 inches.
I couldn’t have made this journey on my own, so thanks to all those whom have contributed and especially our former instructor/mentor.
Currently I’m trying to master the PCD template so I’m not sure what’s next.
George

Day-am! Look like ultra-serious speakers to me! 8 pair in two years? You're nothing less than a R&D program there. OK, I'm impressed. Love to hear 'em....

 

[jhoyt]

I bet you five bucks that you can't make a difference between new D220Ti and the one that has worked for longer period of time, in blind test My claim is from personal experience with compression drivers and i'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. My opinion, that's all...

What MunkeyQ said is true though. It does change its caracteristics if exposed to very high level of power but that is not "break in" in sense of getting smoother sound by period of time. Different it may be, but smoother sounding... not by me

That may well be true. :yes:

 

[Amcrebelfan]

Help!!! How would Sansui SP-3000's work for econowaves? I am a total newbie to this idea but I am not real happy with their sound. Would I need a new woofer and what about the top wave guide and driver? Any help would be grateful I really have enjoyed the tributes to Zilch and it has made me want some really bad. Thanks

 

[juniorJBL]

Those are looking good George!!

Bet they sound nice.

 

[djnagle]

This represents the peak of my two year journey into ewave building and testing. I have built a total of 8 pairs starting with JBL L16’s and culminating with JBL 2235’s using all three of the JBL waveguides and finally the QSC.
The cabinets are salvaged Altec 9984 with the original baffle covered with a sheet of ¾ MDF and a sheet of ½ birch ply routed to flush mount the JBL 2235’s, reconed by the local authorized dealer.
Currently these are running bi-amped thru a Pioneer SF-850 crossover without the advantage of the notch filter. I mimicked the layout of 4430’s with the intent to install a Z-19 crossover aligning the l-pads vertically with the ports.
Attached response curves; blue = 2235 nearfield, red = B&C250 nearfield, green = combined @ 44 inches.
I couldn’t have made this journey on my own, so thanks to all those whom have contributed and especially our former instructor/mentor.
Currently I’m trying to master the PCD template so I’m not sure what’s next.
George

Very cool. Those just look "right". Good job.

 

[donprice]

Help!!! How would Sansui SP-3000's work for econowaves? I am a total newbie to this idea but I am not real happy with their sound. Would I need a new woofer and what about the top wave guide and driver? Any help would be grateful I really have enjoyed the tributes to Zilch and it has made me want some really bad. Thanks

I assume the SP-3000 is a 4 or 5-way design so converting it to a 2-way eWave design is pretty simple. Simple meaning remove everything from the box and start over. Obviously this makes the most sense if the cabinets are quite nice and the drivers are trashed. It is unlikely the woofer will play smoothly to ~1600Hz so replacing is almost certainly required.

I'm guessing the SP-3000 cabinet would be fine for a 12" woofer. Decide on a budget (and new vs vintage) and someone will chime in with some suggestions. Go back to the first page of this thread and read up on the design summary to get up to speed on the basics. An hour or so of reading will really help.

Good luck!

 

[michiganpat]

I assume the SP-3000 is a 4 or 5-way design so converting it to a 2-way eWave design is pretty simple. Simple meaning remove everything from the box and start over. Obviously this makes the most sense if the cabinets are quite nice and the drivers are trashed. It is unlikely the woofer will play smoothly to ~1600Hz so replacing is almost certainly required.

I'm guessing the SP-3000 cabinet would be fine for a 12" woofer. Decide on a budget (and new vs vintage) and someone will chime in with some suggestions. Go back to the first page of this thread and read up on the design summary to get up to speed on the basics. An hour or so of reading will really help.

Good luck!

Just thinking out loud, as a tangent to this, with some of the vintage 3 ways, if the woofer is good and you like the low end response, has anyone thought of or tried making a 2.5 way e-wave? maybe taking a vintage 3 way like this, crossing the original woofer over very low, like in the 100-200hz range, running basically as a built in subwoofer, and then using a nice 6-8" midwoof in a sealed sub enclosure within the box, coupled with the waveguide? an eminence alpha 6a has a 93.6 db/1w/1m sensitivity and a .2cubic foot Vas...

would kind of be like the design philosophy of the AR vertical series, where they have the large bass drivers crossed very low, with the bulk of the frequency range handled by an 8" midbass and a dome mid & tweet, just replacing the 2 upper frequency drivers with the wavequide/compression driver...

 

[kreichenbach]

Just thinking out loud, as a tangent to this, with some of the vintage 3 ways, if the woofer is good and you like the low end response, has anyone thought of or tried making a 2.5 way e-wave? maybe taking a vintage 3 way like this, crossing the original woofer over very low, like in the 100-200hz range, running basically as a built in subwoofer, and then using a nice 6-8" midwoof in a sealed sub enclosure within the box, coupled with the waveguide? an eminence alpha 6a has a 93.6 db/1w/1m sensitivity and a .2cubic foot Vas...

would kind of be like the design philosophy of the AR vertical series, where they have the large bass drivers crossed very low, with the bulk of the frequency range handled by an 8" midbass and a dome mid & tweet, just replacing the 2 upper frequency drivers with the wavequide/compression driver...

How about these.

AR-94Si. 8" woofer and 8" mid range. I refoamed them and they seem very bass heavy. I have been toying with the idea of swapping in a dayton dome tweeter as some other posts have suggested, but maybe an eWave is a better option....

 

[DonQuixote99]

Keep the low bass and the mid-bass, with the mid-bass crossed with e-Wave compression driver/horn at 1600-2000? That's a valid concept I think. Basically, it's like a 2-way e-Wave plus a subwofer, but all in one box.

Original low bass plus a new 6"-8" mid-bass also works of course, but costs more.

 

[JoMoCo]

How about these.

AR-94Si. 8" woofer and 8" mid range. I refoamed them and they seem very bass heavy. I have been toying with the idea of swapping in a dayton dome tweeter as some other posts have suggested, but maybe an eWave is a better option....

The JBL 6x6 waveguide would be a great candidate if your mid woof can go up to at least 2000hz...:thmbsp:

 

[michiganpat]

The JBL 6x6 waveguide would be a great candidate if your mid woof can go up to at least 2000hz...:thmbsp:

I'm 99% sure this speaker has the midwoof/tweet section the same as the AR18/18S, where the woofer runs full range, and the tweet is crossed over with a single cap in the 2000hz range, and the 2nd 8" driver has a 2nd order low pass in the 300hz range...

 

[kreichenbach]

The JBL 6x6 waveguide would be a great candidate if your mid woof can go up to at least 2000hz...:thmbsp:

2000hz should be no problem. The specs I have found shows a tweeter cross-over point of 4000hz. The two 8" drivers are in parallel. The Mid-bass has one 2ohm/22watt resistor in series. The woofer has one 2ohm/22watt resistor and a 1.45mH/0.7ohm inductor in series in addition to a 40uf/50v capacitor in parallel. How should this be changed to properly accomodate the waveguide?

 

[JoMoCo]

2000hz should be no problem. The specs I have found shows a tweeter cross-over point of 4000hz. The two 8" drivers are in parallel. The Mid-bass has one 2ohm/22watt resistor in series. The woofer has one 2ohm/22watt resistor and a 1.45mH/0.7ohm inductor in series in addition to a 40uf/50v capacitor in parallel. How should this be changed to properly accomodate the waveguide?

You could, as a simple first step, add the waveguide with just the Zilch HP (high pass) crossover section to the compression driver. See if you like that and if you want to go to the next step further and learn more, measure your speakers and prototype a "2.5" type crossover for your woofs.:scratch2:

The complete full boat version would require you to do some self study on this thread and also on Zilch's PCD thread

Flex Your PCD Mettle: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536

The budget route you may want to start with is to study then use the research already done and then test & tune from there.

Follow the Zilch plan...prototype, test, modify, finalize.. and then blend that low pass prototype crossover design with the Zilch high pass, test/measure, modify if necessary, enjoy.

The advanced route involves measuring the woofer driver parameters from the get go with test gear and then proceding as documented as in other builds on this thread and on the Flex your PCD mettle over on the techtalk thread...:thmbsp:

one example...
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1655955#post1655955

 

[donprice]

Just thinking out loud, as a tangent to this, with some of the vintage 3 ways, if the woofer is good and you like the low end response, has anyone thought of or tried making a 2.5 way e-wave? maybe taking a vintage 3 way like this, crossing the original woofer over very low, like in the 100-200hz range, running basically as a built in subwoofer, and then using a nice 6-8" midwoof in a sealed sub enclosure within the box, coupled with the waveguide? an eminence alpha 6a has a 93.6 db/1w/1m sensitivity and a .2cubic foot Vas...

Building a "standard" eWave using a 6"/8" driver and adding a 12"/15"/18" subwoofer in each cabinet should be a slam dunk with a subwoofer amp and HT receiver. No fancy XO design work and you add more power where you need it.

 

[winters860]

This represents the peak of my two year journey into ewave building and testing. I have built a total of 8 pairs starting with JBL L16’s and culminating with JBL 2235’s using all three of the JBL waveguides and finally the QSC.

Very nice. I'll be cooking up something similar with JBL 2235H woofs and either the B&C DE250 or Radian 475PB. I'm currently trying to scrounge up a QSC waveguide or suitable replacement.

I'm very intrigued with your design - I'm waffling between building Z19 crossovers and trying MiniDSP.

Any thoughts on what kind of amps your speakers want?