I like those P-Audios best, but reserve them for certain BMS drivers here, and use the less-expensive Selenium ones from Parts Express for just about everything else, #264-323:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-323
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-323
Russellc
Addicted Member
Hi SteveO,
I dont know how much of the thread you've been in on, but just in case you missed it there was a large diatribe on DIY wherein, Geddes took on and measured the econowave guide, followed by much of the same. You probably have read all this, but the thread is becoming so large that many out there probably dont know where all this Geddes talk came from. Again, I'm sure you read all this and were aware, but many out there are probably wondering where/why all this is being discussed now.
Cheers,
Russellc
Russellc
Addicted Member
here we go:
i got home, about 4 hours ago.
let me just explain the setup first.
-Eico HF-87 poweramp
-California Audio Labs cdp directly connected to the Eico
-Altec 12" 414z 16 ohms in the "Seville" cabinet
-E'wave/Selenium horn/driver
-95db+ efficiency crossover variant
cd's played:
-Madeleine Peyroux - half the perfect world
-Giuliano Carmignola - vivaldi violin concerto
-Miles Davis - best of...
-Bucky&Frank - moonglow
-Vince Guaraldi - greatest hits...
-Maurice Gendron - Bach cello concerto
My initial reaction:
"hmmmm...... ok......"
Left the amp on with signal passing at low volume for one hour, and then i came back for second listen:
"WTH!!??... holyshizzzzzzldaaaaamn!!!!:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:
i really don't know how to intelligently describe the sound....., but let me try, and keep in mind that i was running a full blown active tube biamp set up for atleast last 7 months, and the sound i got was already more than spectacular.
with E'wave, the sound was just GRAND. sound stage opened up atleast 50% wider. imaging is amazingly clear and well defined. compared to the 811 horns and the biamp set up i was using, let me just say, a lot of crap just got wiped off, and feels like someone just opened the window wide open. the sound is incredibly stable and solid. i just can't understand how this sound can come out of this little horn and the cab size i used...... literally, it took me a while to get used to the sound.
i do feel the need to tweak the xo a little, and i'm not saying that what i experienced was like discovering Jesus, but this is pretty much revolutionary considering the size of the speaker set up and how it created such GRAND overall sound. if i had done a blind test, i would've guessed that i was listening to a very large fully horn loaded altec or JBL set up - i mean one of those huge speakers.
...man, i gotta calm down a little and listen some more....here are some pictures.
I would like to say two things:
1. Right on! another convert sees the light!:thmbsp:
and,
2. Wow, cardboard AND wire nuts. Very cool. Now these look more like something I made! I've got to get wire nuts.:yes:
Russellc
Russellc
Addicted Member
Russellc
Addicted Member
Hi RussellC:
I’ve been following this thread intently since its inception although I haven’t participated directly very much because I hadn’t planned to adopt anything from the EWG project except general knowledge. That situation has changed in the last few weeks. I also followed the DIY thread when it first appeared but haven’t followed it for the last month or two so don’t know the current status nor do I care to very much.
The recent Geddes “discussion” over here seems to have begun rather innocently with post 1478 but it quickly moved into what some might consider “bash” mode. Objective discussion of various design objectives, inherent tradeoffs involved and so on WRT commercial designs AND the reasoning employed by the designers behind them is fair game IMO. Bashing by those who might have a financial interest in some potential outcome of the discussion is not fair game, again IMO. I don’t believe AK is too keen on bashing either.
I must admit my reason for my recent post is somewhat selfish: I plan to build up something using the EWG concept either as a totally new design using some spare LE14s or as a possible improvement to my Carmel project. Got the parts. Got some test equipment. Got big and growing doubts on the utility of 1/3 or 1/6 octave RTAs for speaker design process. Got no time until Dec,2008. In any case, a live thread would be a good thing.
Back to lurking,
Steve
Hi, Steve!
Glad to hear you're going to become an E'Waver, but I certainly hope you'll also publish your results with BMS/Carmel here on AK. You have a substantial investment in that project, and your findings will certainly be of benefit to others.
I was doing box tuning measurements and leak tests on Wiredbecker's C36s last night, and listened for several hours:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2124026&highlight=C36#post2124026
I have four different versions of the LE14/E'Wave in ZilchLab right now, and am about to start on a fifth using the upsized Baronets Jackgiff kindly brought me last month. I look forward to reviewing your findings regarding this combination here.
I agree that 1/3-octave RTA is not very useful for design work, but 1/6-octave and higher certainly are. I have not retired my RTAs despite having the full capabilities of CLIO available; there are a variety of purposes for which the utility of RTA remains unsurpassed.
In many ways, E'Wave itself stands as testament to what can be accomplished with a 1/6-octave RTA at the hand of a skilled practitioner like Jackgiff. CLIO and I were largely relegated to a role of verification of his work in this project. Is it perfect? Not likely, but there's no denying it's a major step up from conventional fare.
[If you look REALLY carefully, even Geddes said so....
]
Glad to hear you're going to become an E'Waver, but I certainly hope you'll also publish your results with BMS/Carmel here on AK. You have a substantial investment in that project, and your findings will certainly be of benefit to others.
I was doing box tuning measurements and leak tests on Wiredbecker's C36s last night, and listened for several hours:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2124026&highlight=C36#post2124026
I have four different versions of the LE14/E'Wave in ZilchLab right now, and am about to start on a fifth using the upsized Baronets Jackgiff kindly brought me last month. I look forward to reviewing your findings regarding this combination here.
I agree that 1/3-octave RTA is not very useful for design work, but 1/6-octave and higher certainly are. I have not retired my RTAs despite having the full capabilities of CLIO available; there are a variety of purposes for which the utility of RTA remains unsurpassed.
In many ways, E'Wave itself stands as testament to what can be accomplished with a 1/6-octave RTA at the hand of a skilled practitioner like Jackgiff. CLIO and I were largely relegated to a role of verification of his work in this project. Is it perfect? Not likely, but there's no denying it's a major step up from conventional fare.
[If you look REALLY carefully, even Geddes said so....
]
So what were the results? What was the box volume and which crossover was used? I installed my refoamed one in my 4.7 ft3 box last night with the 900/3000 1.5uF/15 ohm circuit in it and was fairly pleased. Bass was not overpowering, but very much deeper and more fluid/articulate than the Altec cabs.
I was planning on working on a new set of cabs tonight and tomorrow, but I'm curious to see how this went first before I start in oin the birch ply..
Measure twice, cut once, and all that you know
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Anyone ever use the excel speedsheet passive xover designer?
Whats interesting is you can put in the woofer perameters for box modeling just like you
would in winisd then save the results as frd and zma files then load um up and model the
xover for your particular woofer. (or so that's the idea)
I'm going to try the mods to the xover I came up with in sim and see how they turn out.
Basically my zobel resistor 4 ohms higher to 12 and the cap from 8uf to 2uf straightens out
the top end response of the woofer, figure I'll try it, what the heck.
I put in a test tweeter an set the xover to 1.6k an flattened it to simulate the selenium just
to see the integration of the slopes at the xover point, yah not exact science but if the sim
gets my woofer correct I think it just might work.
Whats interesting is you can put in the woofer perameters for box modeling just like you
would in winisd then save the results as frd and zma files then load um up and model the
xover for your particular woofer. (or so that's the idea)
I'm going to try the mods to the xover I came up with in sim and see how they turn out.
Basically my zobel resistor 4 ohms higher to 12 and the cap from 8uf to 2uf straightens out
the top end response of the woofer, figure I'll try it, what the heck.
I put in a test tweeter an set the xover to 1.6k an flattened it to simulate the selenium just
to see the integration of the slopes at the xover point, yah not exact science but if the sim
gets my woofer correct I think it just might work.
If my calcs are correct, Wiredbecker's C36s are ~2.8 cuft., and I'm retuning them to 30 Hz per Giskard's recommendation and my own prior experience. They presently measure at 25 Hz, but we want to tighten up the bass, which is somewhat "tubby" tuned that low. I'm reducing the port lengths from 8" to 4.75" to accomplish that.
It's no surprise that LE14A bass is "better" than the stock Valencias; you've traded efficiency to get that extension, is all. If you want extended bass in Vals, bite the efficiency bullet, put JBL 2235Hs in them, and retune appropriately. We've discussed this many times in the past here. Altec themselves did similiar, ultimately. Same as with HF compensation, it seems many Altec enthusiasts simply don't want to hear it.
[You and Kegger'r havin' excellent speakergeek fun, looks like. E'Wave'll do that to ya.... :thmbsp: ]
It's no surprise that LE14A bass is "better" than the stock Valencias; you've traded efficiency to get that extension, is all. If you want extended bass in Vals, bite the efficiency bullet, put JBL 2235Hs in them, and retune appropriately. We've discussed this many times in the past here. Altec themselves did similiar, ultimately. Same as with HF compensation, it seems many Altec enthusiasts simply don't want to hear it.
[You and Kegger'r havin' excellent speakergeek fun, looks like. E'Wave'll do that to ya.... :thmbsp: ]
What did Altec do? Different driver? I don't see 2245s happening as I'm not married to the Vals case or need for big bass, but just was hoping for more than my La Scalas had.
I'm pretty much on board with this LE14 version, but it is less efficient than the Vals, which may be a concern given my amp only puts out 4.8 watts. The mids seem to have come a bit more alive too with the new surrounds, which probably isn't much of a surprise as one would almost expect the stiffer surrounds to suppress the mids more than the bass.
2.8 ft3 w/ the horn installed? What are those dimensions? I may whip up a case as the smaller size does have some intrigue...:scratch2:
C36 is here:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/plans/c35-c39/page2.jpg
I think we all agree, if building from scratch, a somewhat taller and narrower cabinet is desireable, such as the L99 towers I have shown earlier here. Those are just 14" wide, about minimum for LE14s without resorting to other measures.
However, rule of thumb is, if you can see the screen in the waveguide throat, you're within the vertical dispersion pattern, so long as the nulls are outside it. We've taken to butting LE14s right up against the waveguide since Wayne clued us in on that aspect. Their truncated "Squircle" frame confers an additional advantage in minimizing the vertical center-to-center distance between the drivers.
C36s actually conform with this rule of thumb. It's not necessary to elevate them more than the exquisite standard aluminum legs (or the cheapies from IKEA Mxlews found) do at normal seated listening height and distance. If you want that particular "Vintage" look, build the delicious (and easy) C36 Viscounts from the plans and "customize" the front baffle for E'wave. :thmbsp:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/plans/c35-c39/page2.jpg
I think we all agree, if building from scratch, a somewhat taller and narrower cabinet is desireable, such as the L99 towers I have shown earlier here. Those are just 14" wide, about minimum for LE14s without resorting to other measures.
However, rule of thumb is, if you can see the screen in the waveguide throat, you're within the vertical dispersion pattern, so long as the nulls are outside it. We've taken to butting LE14s right up against the waveguide since Wayne clued us in on that aspect. Their truncated "Squircle" frame confers an additional advantage in minimizing the vertical center-to-center distance between the drivers.
C36s actually conform with this rule of thumb. It's not necessary to elevate them more than the exquisite standard aluminum legs (or the cheapies from IKEA Mxlews found) do at normal seated listening height and distance. If you want that particular "Vintage" look, build the delicious (and easy) C36 Viscounts from the plans and "customize" the front baffle for E'wave. :thmbsp:
Yes, 411 which, unfortunately, sucks (allegedly) for other reasons. It was an early Altec design with ferrite, according to Don McRitchie, and the engineer did not understand the requisite parameters. I don't know, myself; I may have seen one, but have never heard or measured an Altec 411....
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63724&#post63724
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Can't loaf while JackLab is down.
It will be one more week before all the work is done at JackLab, but while we are shut down, I went down to my shop at work and cut up the mesquite for my rear pair of HT speakers. The stock was bought long ago, and at that time a pair of Trusonic 80CX's were scheduled to go in the cabinets. Now they will be populated with JBL LE111H's and the 8" square waveguide.
The cabinets are only about 1.25 cubic feet, which may not be enough to get the best bass from the 10" JBL's, but they are what they are. To get the size up to 25"L X 15"H x 10"D, one bottom had to be made from two pieces of wood. I don't have a biscuit cutter, nor do any friends. It seemed as though maybe using a trio of "dumplins", since they will be inside the cabinet would work. Saw cuts were made, and popsicle sticks were glued into the slots. Another way to skin the cat?
Chaney Stas of Grand Prix Garage Floors is shown applying the last coat of polyurethane to the floor. Next week more storage will be added.
It will be one more week before all the work is done at JackLab, but while we are shut down, I went down to my shop at work and cut up the mesquite for my rear pair of HT speakers. The stock was bought long ago, and at that time a pair of Trusonic 80CX's were scheduled to go in the cabinets. Now they will be populated with JBL LE111H's and the 8" square waveguide.
The cabinets are only about 1.25 cubic feet, which may not be enough to get the best bass from the 10" JBL's, but they are what they are. To get the size up to 25"L X 15"H x 10"D, one bottom had to be made from two pieces of wood. I don't have a biscuit cutter, nor do any friends. It seemed as though maybe using a trio of "dumplins", since they will be inside the cabinet would work. Saw cuts were made, and popsicle sticks were glued into the slots. Another way to skin the cat?
Chaney Stas of Grand Prix Garage Floors is shown applying the last coat of polyurethane to the floor. Next week more storage will be added.
Attachments
Hi All, I was going to whip together my ESS AMT 1C EWGs, then this winter redo the woodwork and grills, but I decided to do it all at once. So I would say they MIGHT be done in a month or so. In the mean time, does anyone have the T/S for the ESS AMT 1C woofer? I can not find it on the web. Cheers.
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Well didn't do the xover mods "yet" but using the program did lead me to a discovery!
Since I built these I've always felt the bass cabs didn't quite go up high enough, I had
changed the 12uf cap to 10, then down to 8 and felt it was better but still wasn't quite
what I thought it should be. Now after playing with the analyzer on the EQ it seemed to
comfirm I was down a bit at 1-2k. Well after really looking into the Zobel area I found a
problem, with how low LE these woofers are the cap really should be less than 10uf, an
more like 5uf or so, I thought what was in there was marked 4.7uf but no I missed it big
time as it was 47UF WOW!
When you look at what a Zobel consists of and where it is placed you begin to see what
it could do to your frequency response, now granted it has an 8ohm resistor in series with
it but still a 47uf cap will let frequencies through it fairly low on up, well as those are going
through there and less through the woofer instead then your going to loose them.
Well checking with the analyzer and listening using clip leads I tried it without the 47 and
with, you can see it on the analyzer as 1k starts to dip and 2k really dips, you can hear it
quite easily to, replacing with a 6.2uf cap just dips the 2k a hair on the analyzer and you
can barely here a difference with no Zobel in place. (more experimenting to come)
Now the frequency on the analyzer is pretty darn flat and the cabs sound more like what I
thought they should sound like as voices and guitars come through more cleanly now.
Have to get some real listening in tomorrow and check out the changes but for now I do like
what I'm hearing better then I was before as I had turned up the top L-pads to compensate
for the bottoms and now they match much more seemless with each other.
Since I built these I've always felt the bass cabs didn't quite go up high enough, I had
changed the 12uf cap to 10, then down to 8 and felt it was better but still wasn't quite
what I thought it should be. Now after playing with the analyzer on the EQ it seemed to
comfirm I was down a bit at 1-2k. Well after really looking into the Zobel area I found a
problem, with how low LE these woofers are the cap really should be less than 10uf, an
more like 5uf or so, I thought what was in there was marked 4.7uf but no I missed it big
time as it was 47UF WOW!
When you look at what a Zobel consists of and where it is placed you begin to see what
it could do to your frequency response, now granted it has an 8ohm resistor in series with
it but still a 47uf cap will let frequencies through it fairly low on up, well as those are going
through there and less through the woofer instead then your going to loose them.
Well checking with the analyzer and listening using clip leads I tried it without the 47 and
with, you can see it on the analyzer as 1k starts to dip and 2k really dips, you can hear it
quite easily to, replacing with a 6.2uf cap just dips the 2k a hair on the analyzer and you
can barely here a difference with no Zobel in place. (more experimenting to come)
Now the frequency on the analyzer is pretty darn flat and the cabs sound more like what I
thought they should sound like as voices and guitars come through more cleanly now.
Have to get some real listening in tomorrow and check out the changes but for now I do like
what I'm hearing better then I was before as I had turned up the top L-pads to compensate
for the bottoms and now they match much more seemless with each other.
2214H new enclosure
I am getting a pair of 2214H and need to make enclosure for them, floor standing speakers desired and as narrow as possible. Standard E'wave 220ti and JBL $10 to join this great club.
Jack has kindly given me some info and in Post#600 describes how pleased he is with this in Baronet cabs. It is still unclear to me what the box volume should be and whether sealed is also an option, baronets I believe are
vented. I am open to suggestions
RE X-over Post #166:
Also from Jack:
"Beginning with post number 394 in the EconoWave thread you will see I built a pair using the 2214H. There are mentions up through 578 at least about the 2214H. You can find the low pass frequency, which is same as for a LE14A, and the cabinet size and tuning. I used the crossover version with 30 Ohms and 16 Ohms. It also likes two resistors across the woofers, which are listed in one of the posts."
Apologies to Jack et al. But I am getting somewhat confused. Reading about 200 posts we have volumes of 3. cu ft to 3.8cu ft but in post 599 or so we are given 1.6 cu ft.
Also the Xover is now 1.2kHz?
Thanks for help. There are just too many posts and my inernet speed is 26.6k
so quite a pain to go looking for stuff.
I am getting a pair of 2214H and need to make enclosure for them, floor standing speakers desired and as narrow as possible. Standard E'wave 220ti and JBL $10 to join this great club.
Jack has kindly given me some info and in Post#600 describes how pleased he is with this in Baronet cabs. It is still unclear to me what the box volume should be and whether sealed is also an option, baronets I believe are
vented. I am open to suggestions
RE X-over Post #166:
Also from Jack:
"Beginning with post number 394 in the EconoWave thread you will see I built a pair using the 2214H. There are mentions up through 578 at least about the 2214H. You can find the low pass frequency, which is same as for a LE14A, and the cabinet size and tuning. I used the crossover version with 30 Ohms and 16 Ohms. It also likes two resistors across the woofers, which are listed in one of the posts."
Apologies to Jack et al. But I am getting somewhat confused. Reading about 200 posts we have volumes of 3. cu ft to 3.8cu ft but in post 599 or so we are given 1.6 cu ft.
Also the Xover is now 1.2kHz?
Thanks for help. There are just too many posts and my inernet speed is 26.6k
so quite a pain to go looking for stuff.
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Kegger:
Glad to hear you are sorting out the mids.
How did you come to those values?
Rule of thumb? Or some calculator? Or doing the math?
You sure your decimal point is in the right place?
Glad to hear you are sorting out the mids.
How did you come to those values?
Rule of thumb? Or some calculator? Or doing the math?
You sure your decimal point is in the right place?