I just prefer the sound of the early/mid family of ADS speakers compared to the later generations.
ADS models, an impromptu rollcall
- Thread starter thedelihaus
- Start date
This.
Jdurbin, what I was critiquing was the functionality and musicality of each speaker based on its own individual characteristics; I was not trying to directly compare an L-1590 to a SAT6. My comments were in regard to how each speaker performed on its own merit. In other words, the SAT and S series IMO simply did not perform as well as I had hoped an a/d/s bookshelf speaker would no matter what. (Granted, I should not have said that I was "expecting the same sound" out of the later bookshelves that I got out of the L-420s, because the 420s are quite a bit larger... but still I expected a nice, balanced, musical, rich sound out of the SATs and the S series and they flat did not have it.) I only referenced the L-1290s to the extent that I was glad I changed my mind on giving the company another chance.
Also, as I mentioned in my post, the tweeter of the later bookshelf models may be unfairly characterized as harsh because of the complete lack of midrange in those speakers; a speaker needs balance no matter what the configuration or size to sound appropriate for its characteristics, and the SATs and the S series did NOT have it. That is a design flaw any way you slice it. And honestly, even mentioning "overdriving" those speakers as an excuse for disappointing sound tells me that you simply have too much of an enthusiasm for your own personal a/d/s collection to be fairly critical even when the speaker demands it.
I speak on this subject with a fair amount of experience, though I was not involved with the brand as a product manager until a bit later on. I've spent a fair amount of time looking at response graphs & other documentation as a result.
I will say this again, hopefully with more clarity this time: if you try and drive any ADS bookshelf speaker into the output levels the 1290/1590/1230/1530 can manage, you will just make it mad and/or break it. It is physically impossible to achieve that level of performance with so little displacement.
These later. smaller bookshelf models were intended for use with subwoofers (in larger rooms or when played at high output levels) or for use in near-field situations where the extended frequency response and modest efficiency can be best utilized. In a larger room or when higher output levels are required, either go big or biamp with a sub.
I also think the later systems are touchier about their power bandwidth. They are lower in efficiency (partly because the cabinet air volumes shrank over time) and the drivers can be fragile. Push them too hard trying to achieve higher output levels and they get strident, then break. Again, that's because by this time a/d/s/ was designing around 2.1 systems using bookshelf speakers and powered and passive subwoofers. Those smaller models are absolutely fabulous when you biamp them with a sub, but nowhere near as pleasant to listen to if you're running them full range with any real power behind them.
Keep in mind when the L420/L520 were designed, ADS had not made their evolutionary step into satellite/subwoofer system design so the tuning of those small speakers was intended to allow them to be effective when running fullrange. Not as much the case by the time the SAT series came along (SAT? Hello? I think that name should tell us something!). So, they may sound better to you than the SAT6 or SAT7 when used as stand-alone pairs but again the later ones were designed for being biamped with a subwoofer.
That's why I said this comparison was apples and oranges.
As to me being blinded by my own collection, quite the opposite. I bought these models because I know how spectacular they can sound when utilized properly. That means I DO have a C10ps powered sub to go with the L400's in my office at work, and an HT12ps sub in my HT system with the HT800 proto towers, but the L1230 and L1290/2 are on their own in my big 2 channel system. They don't need a sub to be effective.
I just think you're being unrealistic in comparing such drastically different speakers. I assure you a pair of the SAT speakers can do anything you need them to, if you set them up correctly in a 2.1 system.
John
P.S. What you are characterizing as a "complete lack of midrange" is in fact a superbly flat response curve. There was nothing wrong with the acoustics of these speakers.
I will say this again, hopefully with more clarity this time: if you try and drive any ADS bookshelf speaker into the output levels the 1290/1590/1230/1530 can manage, you will just make it mad and/or break it. It is physically impossible to achieve that level of performance with so little displacement.
These later. smaller bookshelf models were intended for use with subwoofers (in larger rooms or when played at high output levels) or for use in near-field situations where the extended frequency response and modest efficiency can be best utilized. In a larger room or when higher output levels are required, either go big or biamp with a sub.
I also think the later systems are touchier about their power bandwidth. They are lower in efficiency (partly because the cabinet air volumes shrank over time) and the drivers can be fragile. Push them too hard trying to achieve higher output levels and they get strident, then break. Again, that's because by this time a/d/s/ was designing around 2.1 systems using bookshelf speakers and powered and passive subwoofers. Those smaller models are absolutely fabulous when you biamp them with a sub, but nowhere near as pleasant to listen to if you're running them full range with any real power behind them.
Keep in mind when the L420/L520 were designed, ADS had not made their evolutionary step into satellite/subwoofer system design so the tuning of those small speakers was intended to allow them to be effective when running fullrange. Not as much the case by the time the SAT series came along (SAT? Hello? I think that name should tell us something!). So, they may sound better to you than the SAT6 or SAT7 when used as stand-alone pairs but again the later ones were designed for being biamped with a subwoofer.
That's why I said this comparison was apples and oranges.
As to me being blinded by my own collection, quite the opposite. I bought these models because I know how spectacular they can sound when utilized properly. That means I DO have a C10ps powered sub to go with the L400's in my office at work, and an HT12ps sub in my HT system with the HT800 proto towers, but the L1230 and L1290/2 are on their own in my big 2 channel system. They don't need a sub to be effective.
I just think you're being unrealistic in comparing such drastically different speakers. I assure you a pair of the SAT speakers can do anything you need them to, if you set them up correctly in a 2.1 system.
John
P.S. What you are characterizing as a "complete lack of midrange" is in fact a superbly flat response curve. There was nothing wrong with the acoustics of these speakers.
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xxhanhxx
Active Member
I can't comment on earlier a/d/s bookshelves as I've never heard, but I do prefer bookshelves used with a subwoofer over floor standers. Don't get me wrong I really like the 1090's and I think they are one of the better made floor standers but I prefer the soundstage and highs of the SAT 7's. BTW, there are midrange drivers on the Sat 7's. The midrange on the S700's are laid back, and lacking compared to the others, but the highs are nowhere close to being harsh. Which earlier A/D/S bookshelves would you recommend?
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I'm a huge fan of the L400's. I use a pair in walnut mounted on the matching F400 stands in my office at work. Richard So rebuilt all of the drivers to match the original specs after I bought them (came with mismatched woofers & tweeters but the cosmetics were 9.5/10), and they sound just fabulous.
John
John
Well, better bass than the 300... as for the others, don't own any nor have I heard them. I would guess the larger cabs would be an improvement in terms of bass output for the others you mentioned. I use a powered sub to supplement the L400's though, which negates that. I just think the L400's have a very nice, balanced sound plus they are fricking gorgeous with the walnut cabs and bronze metal grills.
John
John
I have never heard the L400 but the L420 is a real sleeper for a medium 2 way speaker. Very enjoyable with a little Nakamichi 420 50WPC amp.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
Yup. Back in the day I went into Magnolia Hi Fi to pick up stacked advents and walked out with a pair of L-810A's instead. Actually, my friend and I both did. That was one happy salesman.You have left out the very early production models of the 710 & 810, the L-710A and L-810A. These were among the first speakers produced by ADS and used all Braun drivers. The driver complements were the same as the later (non A) models.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
ADS completely sold me on the soft domes. I carry that respect to Polk. That said, for high volume and large space, other alternatives may work better. I've never seen a FOH PA speaker that uses dome tweeters.
First of all, for the last time, I am NOT comparing the sound of an L-1290 or L-1590 directly to the sound of a SAT7. It would be absurd to do anything of the sort, yet you continually fall back on that argument. So, here's how I WILL compare the later bookshelves to the earlier ads speakers. You say that what I consider a lack of midrange is in fact a very flat response curve. So, that would insinuate that they have a comparable response (within reason--say, 250Hz and upward) to the incredibly flat response of an L-1290, which has been proven from the test results that were found in the Julian Hirsch review linked in this forum (and easily found online.) Your claim can easily be justified simply by posting the response curve test results of these. Anything less is strictly opinion and not based on anything other than what you want people to believe, which again leads me to believe you are being influenced by your investment in these. Also, to reiterate, the later ads bookshelf models again have been characterized by several enthusiasts, not just me, as lacking midrange and emphasizing upper midbass and highs-- including some on this very board in other threads. You of course are entitled to your opinion but it certainly seems to be heavily influenced by the fact that you own these speakers and don't want anyone criticizing them.
Secondly, you keep insisting that I apparently was not using these speakers properly- either by overdriving them to fill a large room, or by not pairing them with an adequate subwoofer. In response to the first insinuation, my living room, where I had those speakers set up (and now have the L-1290s) is a tidy 20' x 18' area. It would take a VERY minute speaker to not be able to fill that space with sound. Obviously soundstaging comes into play in this regard as well-- which the ads bookshelves by your own admission have plenty of-- so that's not the issue. I had them paired with a Marantz SR-18ex receiver- not up to the speed of your world class separates I suppose, but still packing plenty of heft (140w/ch) to power the SATs or the S series without having to turn the volume to 11. This receiver powered plenty of other bookshelves between the SATs and the L-1290s with zero problem of filling in midrange frequencies (my personal favorites in this vein were the Energy C-3s, which are VERY comparable to your beloved ADS models and completely knocked me out with how good, full and rich they sounded, being a two way model--and this is important--EITHER WITH OR WITHOUT A SUBWOOFER.)
Which brings us to your second implication, which is that I was running these without a subwoofer and trying to make up for it by overdriving them. Two problems here. First off, saying the ADS models must have a subwoofer to round them out is a copout, especially since the frequency response being argued here is the midRANGE, NOT midBASS (although a subwoofer should not come into play anywhere here anyway.) Do I expect rock bottom frequency extension out of a two way with a 7" woofer? Of course not. Do I expect full bodied, rich sound within the realm of what the drivers in a two way speaker with a 7" woofer and a 1" dome are physically capable of providing? Obviously the design and manufacturing quality will have a lot to do with the answer to that question, but since we are talking about ADS bookshelves here I'd say the answer is an unequivocal yes. Did I get that rich full bodied sound? Absolutely not. Now here's the all-important equalizing question: Did I achieve that sound out of OTHER, SIMILARLY DESIGNED speakers (such as the Energys mentioned above?) Absolutely. Bottom line: the ADS bookshelves were quite disappointing, regardless of their size or design limitations.
Now, I probably went way out of the way to prove a point there, but I felt it was necessary to negate your argument. Nevertheless, the point is moot anyway, because I was indeed running these with a sub. Would you like to know which sub? Well lo and behold, it is an ADS SW-500 12" powered bandpass design, one of if not THE best subs that ADS ever put out (and before your "C" and "HT" series subs after the company was taken over by DE mind you.) The funny thing (and what goes a long way toward discounting your subwoofer theory) is this: I still run this sub with my L-1290's, because as good as the 1290s are, they can't quite reach down and grab that lowest octave. THAT is a subwoofer's place and purpose, NOT to try to balance out a bookshelf that's not cutting the mustard.
To sum up: just because you have a freaking slew of ADS speakers sitting around doesn't make you the chief expert on anything regarding sound quality, and you don't get to make up for a lack of knowing what constitutes good sound by condescending to others by throwing out opinions that can't possibly be proven or insinuating that someone else isn't smart enough to know the limitations of bookshelves compared to full range floorstanders.
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Sorry xxhanhxx, I meant the S series as two-ways not the SATs, but I would totally agree with you that the midrange on the S series is laid back; where I disagree with you is that I think they are laid back to the point of being a problem. They are still good speakers as I stated earlier, and my rant makes it sound like I absolutely hated them which I didn't--they were just disappointing to me.
Any of the earlier smaller ADS bookshelves such as the L-300 and L-400 models would be great- and seeing that jdurbin recommended the L-400s as well makes me wonder even more just how he can defend the S series or the SATs for that matter, as the Lx00s sound MUCH more musical.
The Lx10s and Lx20s are more in the floorstanding vein having larger cabinet volume but those are worth considering as well if your setup allows space for them. You would be amazed at how different they sound, but to be fair if you like your highs emphasized you may not greet them with the same enthusiasm that others do.
Jeez sb01, mellow out already! I wasn't attacking you or your opinions, just sharing my own opinion on these same later speakers which I think are far better than you seem to believe.
I don't owe you an explanation on the basis for forming my own opinions or any test curves, last time I checked this was a place where people could express themselves in a friendly way.
You can continue to piss in my ear over what I had to say, or back off and let this otherwise amicable discussion proceed... your call.
Thanks for the history lesson though, as the last active product manager for a/d/s/ before the brand was shelved, I would have never known that if you hadn't brought it up... wait, yes, I did know that. In fact, I am using an SW-500 upstairs to supplement the c400is in-walls in my spare room. It's ok, nothing spectacular though.
I do appreciate you mentioning you were using a sub though, since that hadn't been addressed previously.
John
I don't owe you an explanation on the basis for forming my own opinions or any test curves, last time I checked this was a place where people could express themselves in a friendly way.
You can continue to piss in my ear over what I had to say, or back off and let this otherwise amicable discussion proceed... your call.
Thanks for the history lesson though, as the last active product manager for a/d/s/ before the brand was shelved, I would have never known that if you hadn't brought it up... wait, yes, I did know that. In fact, I am using an SW-500 upstairs to supplement the c400is in-walls in my spare room. It's ok, nothing spectacular though.
I do appreciate you mentioning you were using a sub though, since that hadn't been addressed previously.
John
xxhanhxx
Active Member
SB and Durbin- Thank you both for the recommendations, but let's cool down and try to keep it friendly. Admittedly I'm a speakerholic, and having gone through numerous speaker brands, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Paradigm, B&W etc, I constantly find myself going back to a/d/s. The problem is that I keep trying to find speakers that better a/d/s, but can't. Can only an a/d/s kill an a/d/s? 
I mean aren't they the best sounding for the money? I did purchase a new MS4 back in the 90's, but found it too sluggish for music perhaps because of bandpass design. I do prefer the sound of sealed speaker designs.
I mean aren't they the best sounding for the money? I did purchase a new MS4 back in the 90's, but found it too sluggish for music perhaps because of bandpass design. I do prefer the sound of sealed speaker designs.
bhebbel
Well-Known Member
This whole thread is starting to remind me of a recent quip I heard Steve Tyler (Aerosmith) say on American Idol:
"I would agree with you but then we would both be wrong!"
Background:
My first ADS speakers were a pair of L300's. I bought them for my car. I had never heard such great sound from such a small pair of speakers! I mounted them in the back of my 1966 Mustang (my first car) with a Carver M-240 car amp. I had what sounded as good as any system that I had had up until that time right in my car!
FWIW- my home system was a Yamaha CA1010/CT1010 with a pair of RTR 180D speakers.
A few years later (1985??) I had saved enough to go speaker shopping for a big step up. I went into the audio stores and started auditioning speakers. I used my L-300's as a benchmark. Many of the local stores in Baltimore (Hi Hon!!) had ADS speakers so I would start with them as my listening baseline. If a store ddin't carry ADS but had another brand that I wanted to audition, I'd take in my L300's and ask if I could hook them up for comparison testing. No one ever said "no". It seems that they knew if I had ADS speakers and a carver amp in a cheap car I was serious!
L-300's were $370 per pair and that was A LOT of money for someone to spend on car speakers back them. My little L300's embarrased a lot of supposedly good popular speakers. I went into a store that carred the whole ADS product line. My ears kept creeping up the product line whil my wallet was screaming for me to STOP!!. I wound up in the "listening room" where the floor standing speakers were.
1090's were $1100 per pair
1290's were$1400 per pair
1590's were $2200 per pair (walnut)
I was hoping to be satisfied with 1090's or 1290's to save my wallet but I was smitten with the 1590's compared to the other ADS speakers or anything else in the store.
The 1590's were just MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still have the 1590's.
I'm on my third wife.
That should tell you something.
I have a a modest proposal that might be nearly impossible to kick off----An ADS speaker shoot-out.
WTF-I live in Leesburg VA. I have the following:
200's, 300's (the originals) 400's, 520's, (3) CM-7's, (1) 1090 that I purchased to turn into a center channel, 1590s(the originals) and enough spare parts to replenish Richard So's inventory!
xxhanhxx
Active Member
:tresbon: post bhebbel!
bhebbel
Well-Known Member
I somehow hit "send" before I was finished. Sorry about that.
I'll load up my 4Runner with the toys and drive to a mutually chosen location within 250 miles from here. I'll set mine up with what ever else anyone can carry in, set up a listening room in someone's house or garage, and start comparing!!
Price of admission-A pair of ADS speakers for demoing and a minimum of one six pack of beer. I can buy a big speaker switch on ebay and sell it off again on ebay when we are done.
I can bring a yamaha C-80 and a P2200 to drive the show. I would prefer that someone else provide the TT's,CD's,etc.
This would have to be a two day event.
One day to set it up and crank it up.
One day to do some real listening and testing.
I will offer an open garage bay (carpeted) in Leesburg unless somene else has better facilities to offer. I'll have to get the 'junk out of the trunk" but at least this would give me the motiviation to get it cleaned up and cleaned out.
garage-24' X 14' with a 12' ceiling (approximate)
P.S. BYOC (chair) You will want to be comfortable. Folding chairs available on request.
Grand Prize???? Left over beer. I'll bet it will be a small prize!
Is anyone interested?
I'll load up my 4Runner with the toys and drive to a mutually chosen location within 250 miles from here. I'll set mine up with what ever else anyone can carry in, set up a listening room in someone's house or garage, and start comparing!!
Price of admission-A pair of ADS speakers for demoing and a minimum of one six pack of beer. I can buy a big speaker switch on ebay and sell it off again on ebay when we are done.
I can bring a yamaha C-80 and a P2200 to drive the show. I would prefer that someone else provide the TT's,CD's,etc.
This would have to be a two day event.
One day to set it up and crank it up.
One day to do some real listening and testing.
I will offer an open garage bay (carpeted) in Leesburg unless somene else has better facilities to offer. I'll have to get the 'junk out of the trunk" but at least this would give me the motiviation to get it cleaned up and cleaned out.
garage-24' X 14' with a 12' ceiling (approximate)
P.S. BYOC (chair) You will want to be comfortable. Folding chairs available on request.
Grand Prize???? Left over beer. I'll bet it will be a small prize!
Is anyone interested?