Cerwin Vega Dissapointment

[Jeff K]

"A massive receiver to push a pair of CVs", really??? I don't know about your CV's but the pair I have will rock your house with little power. I have a pair of 316-R's, 15" woofers and 103dB's w/1 watt...Push to much power thru these babies and you'll wind up replacing your picture window in your house. As far as performance goes the old CV's sound a lot better than the new ones (IMHO).

Paul Klipsch was fond of saying, "What this country needs is a good five watt amplifier." (A play on the five cent cigar saying, for you youngsters.)

 

[DEFTECHY]

djcooolray: FYI, CV AT-100's have a efficiency range of like 102db with one watt... how or why do you need a "massive receiver to push them"??? they produce 102db with 1 watt! pretty sure that means even a 50 watt receiver will run them pretty easily & rather loud! yes more power equals more headroom & is usually always better to have higher power especially on power hungry speakers, but saying you need massive power to run them is a complete contradiction to their specs.

 

[DEFTECHY]

xerodhero: glad you are familiar with the 282 onkyo amps, they are pretty decent amps for the ~$100 you can buy them for today, my friend is more than happy with his system for its intentioned use. kinda like party speakers, but on steroids!

sounds like we have a lot of similar gear... i have some old onkyo gear too, p301 pre & the m-504 amp @ 165wpc, very nice sounding amp. i also have an adcom system among others, 2 gfa555ii amps (bridgeable to 600watts into 8 ohm), gfa500ii pre & a gcd600 cd player... they are running my klipsch cornerhorn speakers, 2 pair of them! so not to toot my own horn.. pun intended but i have progressed in this hobby to a level of sound that not too many systems can match. in stock form the folded horn bass bin of the k-horn with its 15" woofer can create bass that not many direct radiating speakers can do, these things will hit you in the chest like youre being punched & also will vibrate & rattle walls. & they can reach big venue live concert levels with ease. seriously loud & fun when youre younger, but more important to me nowadays is sound quality at mid volume levels, these klipsch & most other higher end klipsch have that quality. after graduating away from "party speakers" like MTX & CV etc, theres really no turning back. most sound like ghetto blasters compared to higher quality speakers. but again, sound perception is 100% up to the individual & as i mentioned earlier, i can appreciate all aspects of audio & speakers.... & cars & food & women! nothing wrong with variety!

 

[Chris Brown]

djcooolray: FYI, CV AT-100's have a efficiency range of like 102db with one watt... how or why do you need a "massive receiver to push them"??? the produce 102db with 1 watt! pretty sure that means even a 50 watt receiver will run them pretty easily & rather loud! yes more power equals more headroom & is usually always better to have higher power especially on power hungry speakers, but saying you need massive power to run them is a complete contradiction to their specs.

The D-9s are rated at 101dB so you would think they would be similar in that regard. Really what it comes down to is bass. Playing them loud with bass heavy content can suck up 100+wpc like it was nothing. I had a Pioneer SX-1050 (120wpc) and a Fisher RS-1060 (125wpc) both powering them at one point, and you could clearly tell that they were inadequate as on both the face-plate lights would dim significantly with each bass note. Even with my Yamaha M-2 (240wpc) the D-9's would have the overload lights twinkling at high volumes.

I'm sure some tiny 50wpc receiver would be just fine without bass heavy content coming into play, but then again the reason people buy these speakers has to be factored in. If your amp.doesn't have the power to handle heavy bass, it probably shouldn't be powering a Cerwin-Vega. So, while saying that they should have "massive power" to run them might be a "complete contradiction to their specs" (specs that were likely measured at 1khz), saying that they can do just fine in a typical usage scenario with only 50wpc is a "complete contradiction" to the real-life experiences people have actually had with these kinds of speakers.

 

[DEFTECHY]

The D-9s are rated at 101dB so you would think they would be similar in that regard. Really what it comes down to is bass. Playing them loud with bass heavy content can suck up 100+wpc like it was nothing. I had a Pioneer SX-1050 (120wpc) and a Fisher RS-1060 (125wpc) both powering them at one point, and you could clearly tell that they were inadequate as on both the face-plate lights would dim significantly with each bass note. Even with my Yamaha M-2 (240wpc) the D-9's would have the overload lights twinkling at high volumes.

I'm sure some tiny 50wpc receiver would be just fine without bass heavy content coming into play, but then again the reason people buy these speakers has to be factored in. If your amp.doesn't have the power to handle heavy bass, it probably shouldn't be powering a Cerwin-Vega. So, while saying that they should have "massive power" to run them might be a "complete contradiction to their specs" (specs that were likely measured at 1khz), saying that they can do just fine in a typical usage scenario with only 50wpc is a "complete contradiction" to the real-life experiences people have actually had with these kinds of speakers.

fully agree with what you say, in fact i said that higher power is always better for power hungry speakers or demanding music... my point is that with a high efficiency rating, theoretically you dont "need" "massive power" to run them in the average listening situation. granted if you plan to play rap "music" or techno stuff at a rave, then yes you may very well need massive power... but the comment stated was "even at low levels" you need massive power... fact is that listening to the average rock & roll music or other genres that doesnt have bass past about 40-50hz you do not "need" massive power.

i have owned the 10" & 12" D series speakers & a friend had the D9's... all were plenty loud with standard 80-100wpc onkyo or pioneer type receivers, far from massive... & for 75% of the time/music they would have been fine on even less power. i understand how SPL ratings are measured, that doesnt change the fact that these are way above average efficiency speakers & they will produce lots of sound with less than "massive" power. thats all i was saying.

 

[Hanleyster]

A stated 45hz drop off point sorta sucks. You seemed to find one of the only CV speakers that are bass-shy. they could have been made for the Japanese market?

Cabinets are sort of small. Oh well, sell them and get better CVs.

 

[Gibsonian]

OP,

Did you ever verify polarity using battery method that was suggested? If you haven't that would be a good idea as there is not guarantee that what you have is correct by looking at wire colors alone.

On the 45 Hz lots of speakers don't go much below that number, lots and lots of bookshelves, and small woofered towers. Specs might say they do though.

BTW, D9's are not really 101 dB no matter what CV said back then. If you go to their website they explain methodology has changed and their much lower efficiency speaks produced today are about the same. They're really around 95 dB/1 watt, which is still pretty efficient.

As a prior owner I can support that the sound quality esp bass does get better with a high powered amplifier. Yes, they'll go loud with your 120 watt receiver but they sound like another speaker (another better one) with a 400 watt component amplifier connected to them.

 

[halo71]

It takes a massive receiver to push a pair of CV's, if your not pushing at least a 100 watts.....forget about it ! I know someone with a sixty watt amp is going to say theirs sound just fine. But, if your Reciever isn't a pig for amps you can't get any real sound from a pair of CV's.

I found this pretty funny. While I am not a fan of CV speakers at all. I have owned a pair or two over the years. And besides a pair of Klipsch I once had. The CV's were the most efficient speaker I've owned. Very very easy to drive with as little as a 25 watt tube amp to ear splitting levels. They are not power hogs in the least. Now Infinity Kappa 9's....those are power hogs!



Can you please tell me the exact model Polk speaker you are referring to here? Because what you mention below is not a known model to me. And your statement before the Polk model speaker you mention. What is that about? They can be played at a lower volume but only with a higher wattage amp?!?

Seems like you are interested more int loud, high SPL music/noise than you are accurate reproduction of music. Hence the later models you mention below are all a much much better speaker than the CV's you like. Not saying that's a bad thing on you. People like what they like. CV's personally sound like toe nails on a chalkboard to me. But variety is the spice of life no?

I own a pair of Cerwin Vega AT-100's that were first produced in Germany during the late eighties. My Cerwin Vegas have the same drivers as yours but with better tweets and mids that are also adjustable and my CV's are just as rare as yours. The max wattage they can handle before blowing a fuse is four hundred watts and they can be played at lower volume levels but only by a high watt/amp receiver. I've taken on Polk Audio Studio Monitor Tower speakers, JBL 250ti's and Yamaha NS-1000 without a problem in all volume ranges. But, everyone knows you can't hook up an anemic forty-five to sixty watt receiver or amp up to a pair of Cerwin Vega tower speakers. Unless of course you are using a receiver as a preamp to an amp that's just slightly higher in power.

But really, do you have to go into a tirade about it, I knew someone with a low watt receiver would do some complaining and you have to realize that not all receivers are rated the same. Then too your speakers are in a shorter speaker box so they should respond better to lower amounts of signal. Then since I don't know anything about what is pushing the signal to your speakers. That being the point of it all, what's pushing the signal, the crossover and the space inside the speaker box.

 

[Jayrosc]

OP,

Did you ever verify polarity using battery method that was suggested? If you haven't that would be a good idea as there is not guarantee that what you have is correct by looking at wire colors alone.

On the 45 Hz lots of speakers don't go much below that number, lots and lots of bookshelves, and small woofered towers. Specs might say they do though.

BTW, D9's are not really 101 dB no matter what CV said back then. If you go to their website they explain methodology has changed and their much lower efficiency speaks produced today are about the same. They're really around 95 dB/1 watt, which is still pretty efficient.

As a prior owner I can support that the sound quality esp bass does get better with a high powered amplifier. Yes, they'll go loud with your 120 watt receiver but they sound like another speaker (another better one) with a 400 watt component amplifier connected to them.

I didn't do the battery thing because I didn't really understand it. How is that test done? attach the battery to the terminals on the back of the speaker cabinet? Or do you take the woofer and attach it directly to the woofer? Is polarity the same thing as phase? When testing I deliberately switched the wiring of the + and - on one of the cabinets to see what happened. bass dropped and sound started coming from odd places in the room, so I figured these were "in phase" when connected to the amp as one usually would.

 

[hnash53]

The D-9s are rated at 101dB so you would think they would be similar in that regard. Really what it comes down to is bass. Playing them loud with bass heavy content can suck up 100+wpc like it was nothing. I had a Pioneer SX-1050 (120wpc) and a Fisher RS-1060 (125wpc) both powering them at one point, and you could clearly tell that they were inadequate as on both the face-plate lights would dim significantly with each bass note. Even with my Yamaha M-2 (240wpc) the D-9's would have the overload lights twinkling at high volumes.

I'm sure some tiny 50wpc receiver would be just fine without bass heavy content coming into play, but then again the reason people buy these speakers has to be factored in. If your amp.doesn't have the power to handle heavy bass, it probably shouldn't be powering a Cerwin-Vega. So, while saying that they should have "massive power" to run them might be a "complete contradiction to their specs" (specs that were likely measured at 1khz), saying that they can do just fine in a typical usage scenario with only 50wpc is a "complete contradiction" to the real-life experiences people have actually had with these kinds of speakers.

You know... I've been running 10 to 20 watt vintage receivers and had them playing pretty bass-heavy tunes... and they do just fine. And that is using 89dB sensitive speakers. I really do not buy into big watt amps/receivers thing. A speaker with a sensitivity of 102dB is only 3dB below the SPL where hearing damage begins at 105dB. They are your ears, but listening at anymore than 1 watt for very long will prematurely end your listening enjoyment. Heaven forbid if you actually use 10 watts of power. When you poll what levels people typically listen at, it is at about 1 watt... maybe even a bit less.

The OP's receiver is just fine to produce adequate bass.

 

[sax6]

I didn't do the battery thing because I didn't really understand it. How is that test done? attach the battery to the terminals on the back of the speaker cabinet? Or do you take the woofer and attach it directly to the woofer? Is polarity the same thing as phase? When testing I deliberately switched the wiring of the + and - on one of the cabinets to see what happened. bass dropped and sound started coming from odd places in the room, so I figured these were "in phase" when connected to the amp as one usually would.

Should we start from the very begining again ? This is getting quite mixed up.
That, '' I've redone the crossover '' thing added to not beeing familiar with phase and polarity worries me.

Put a AA battery connected to the terminals of one cabinet. Now, did the woofer traveled forward or backward ?
If forward then the plus on the battery indicates positive binding and the flat end side of the battery indicates -
Do that on the two cabinets.
Wire the 2 cabinets relative to + or - signs to the amp.

Should get you nice, deep bass. CV,s should get you at least a good render in bass dept.
I would not worry about the 40hz -3Db point <<<<<specs.. Bof.

 

[Gibsonian]

I didn't do the battery thing because I didn't really understand it. How is that test done? attach the battery to the terminals on the back of the speaker cabinet? Or do you take the woofer and attach it directly to the woofer? Is polarity the same thing as phase? When testing I deliberately switched the wiring of the + and - on one of the cabinets to see what happened. bass dropped and sound started coming from odd places in the room, so I figured these were "in phase" when connected to the amp as one usually would.

Wouldn't hurt to verify with battery and is a good thing to know how to do, but it sounds like you have already confirmed by swapping polarity and seeing the bass drop from normal polarity. I won't describe the test as seems sax6 has already done it. Don't understand your bass deficiency but I've come to be ok with not understanding a lot of stuff!

If you do the battery test I'd also take a look at the midrange too (but you would have to connect battery directly to the input terminals as there is likely a capacitor that would block all DC in the crossover for the mid). If it is off could affect perceived bass output as well, although not by a lot.

 

[whoaru99]

All banter aside, desired SPL is a major factor in how much power is needed. If 100dB peak levels from your 100dB/W/m speakers is all you want then you don't need a massive amp. Well, at least not in any typical household setting.

 

[whoaru99]

I didn't do the battery thing because I didn't really understand it. How is that test done? attach the battery to the terminals on the back of the speaker cabinet? Or do you take the woofer and attach it directly to the woofer? Is polarity the same thing as phase? When testing I deliberately switched the wiring of the + and - on one of the cabinets to see what happened. bass dropped and sound started coming from odd places in the room, so I figured these were "in phase" when connected to the amp as one usually would.

At the back of the speaker cabinet where the speaker wires connect. Checking at the driver is irrelevant if the wires between the driver and the external speaker wire terminals are crossed up.

The correct terminology in this case is polarity, not phase.

Since there is already a quote alleged to Paul Klipsch, here's one that I can guarantee is, as it's directly from one of his "The Dope from Hope" articles.

...
There is no hope of altering the semantics of the lay public, but it may be that the more receptive ones will find the term "polarity" more acceptable than the mis-used "phase", and you shouldn't feel reluctant to parade your superior knowledge.
...

Of course, this isn't the case because PWK says it's so, it's simply technically correct. I just found it amusing the way he put it.

 

[Northwinds]

1w into D9's sounds like ****, they don't open up until your hitting -5dBs on the Onkyo M-504 which is about 50w. After that, they just bloom and start sounding better and better as you feed them power

 

[Lesterbest]

If you use them as a party speaker @ head banger levels, obviously power is needed - a lot of it.

 

[Northwinds]

There's that party speaker comment again... sheesh

I play my guitar along with my system using a Peavey 6505 2x12 combo so yeah, it has to be loud or the tube amp sounds like ****

I am thinking there is a lot of folks who really don't get it, music is to be enjoyed anyway you want, there is no rules for volume level. I am not deaf and I stood in front of a Marshall stack for over 20 years

 

[whoaru99]

1w into D9's sounds like ****, they don't open up until your hitting -5dBs on the Onkyo M-504 which is about 50w. After that, they just bloom and start sounding better and better as you feed them power

Regardless, the fact remains. If you want 100dB peak from D9s you don't need a massive amp.

And, yes, I am original owner of a pair of D9s. Don't use them much, but I do still have them in the back room.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I recall that a speaker's most accurate performance is at low power. I think the more you turn up the volume the less linear the response becomes. Now, I enjoy chest-thumping, pants-leg-flapping bass on occasion too and you don't normally get that at low power. However, that's a different matter than the most accurate reproduction from the speaker. Afaik, the non-linearity affects bass the most, ie. low bass can't keep up with mid-bass and up. Perhaps some of our speaker gurus could further comment on that, if they happen to encounter this thread?

 

[Gibsonian]

Gotta agree with Northwinds here. All things have limits to them, but in my extended experience in listening to stock and modified D9's that I have owned and via friends systems, they sound best with high quality, high power amplification driving them.

 

[whoaru99]

If you define best as loud(er), yeah.

If you define best as most linear/smoothest response then standard evidence suggests otherwise.