Jayrosc
Super Member
Just did it. What a fun test!
Good results. Both woofers pushed outwards.
Cerwin Vega Dissapointment
- Thread starter Jayrosc
- Start date
Good results. Both woofers pushed outwards.
I don't define best as loud fyi.
I have used several smaller wattage amps with the D9's and they did not sound as good at any level of spl (sound quality, not quantity). My opinion is not based on this standard evidence that you speak of, it has been my experience (empirical).
I have used several smaller wattage amps with the D9's and they did not sound as good at any level of spl (sound quality, not quantity). My opinion is not based on this standard evidence that you speak of, it has been my experience (empirical).
DEFTECHY
Well-Known Member
i'll throw in my final .02 here... i think some of you guys with the "massive power" claims are confusing something... wattage to speakers have RMS & peak power ratings, just the same when you listen to them you are feeding them a constant wattage & then it will hit peaks based on the music material, bass usually requires the most power & will generate the peaks. northwinds comment about "they dont open up untill you hit 50 watts on the M-504" can be confusing, are you saying 50w peaks or 50w constant power? (if constant its probably hitting 75+w peaks) its a BIG difference. as stated most music is listened to at lower watts than 50 constant watts.. & on a 102bd SPL rated speaker 50 continous watts is VERY loud & if you dont have power level meters you are purely guessing what watts you are running to your speakers... yeah you may have a 200wpc amp but i guarantee its not pushing anywhere near that much power unless the speakers are in a 3000sqft or bigger building or outside & the volume knob is at max (10 out of 10)
so bottom line here is that you do NOT need massive power to push a high efficiency speaker to ear bleed levels or to produce good bass. unless you have some crazy expensive exotic speaker like halo71 mentioned infinity kappa 9's or their other model thats like 7ft tall with 32 mids & tweets! fact is most of you have no clue how many real watts are being pushed to your speakers. as i mentioned before, yes a high power QUALITY amp will usually always sound better than a low power amp especially in bass heavy music on power hungry speakers due to the extended headroom or "reserve" power it has, but to make statements like they are matter of fact about how a 102db SPL soeaker "needs" "massive power" is simply not true.
i also agree that at some DB point, youre not really listening to the music in a critical manner, where you can appreciate the linear response & pick out individual instruments & their subtle nuances etc etc, you are now just blaring the music & it all blends into a 1 dimensional level of "noise" for lack of a better term.... or as one member said, just standing in front of a marshal stack, that is far from the norm of music enjoyment in a home situation in an average room. trust that i can appreciate both types of music listening, i've been to countless big venue big band rock concerts in my time & i own what are probably one of the loudest speakers ever built, if not the loudest, klipsch corner horns. ive driven them with everything from low watt vintage gear like marantz 25wpc to high power high current amps like adcom gfa555ii @ 200wpc (even ran 2 of the adcom amps bridged to 600wpc for a short time) & i can say that the marantz sounded best overall unless i wanted ear bleed punch you in the chest volume levels. each listening situation can vary greatly based on many factors such as room size, & desired constant volume, if youre a DJ using your speakers for weddings or large venues then obviously you need massive power to reach constant decible levels, but if youre listening on a more critical level & want to enjoy the music & not show off or brag to your friends about how loud your speakers can go, then you simply do not need massive power & most quality receivers at 60-80watts are more than enough. so its all relative to what the user wants, just dont make blanket statements like youre situation is the one & only situation that matters or you MUST have massive power.
this thread has seemed to get off topic from the OP's questions & statements that his particular CV speakers lack bass. i think its the 45HZ drop off that is the main cause of his perception of lack of bass & that he is comparing them to other speakers that dig deeper & produce better bass than the CV's. but it would be a good idea to check the polarity as mentioned above, or simply trace all the wires from the back of the speaker terminal cup, also explaining what was done to the x-overs, he said he "cleaned them up" but dirt is never an issue on xovers, its the internal electronic measurements that determine if a capacitor is bad. so if the x-overs are untouched from the original configuration & the wires from the terminals are wired red to black (+ & -) to the x-over & then to the drivers, there is a 99.9% chance they are in phase or correct polarity... he just doesnt like the bass. time to move on or live with them for what they are... bass lacking run of the mill average speakers.
sorry for the long post, but this thread could go on forever with the back & forth opinions & myths about watts vs SPL vs any given listening scenario.. just enjoy the music!
so bottom line here is that you do NOT need massive power to push a high efficiency speaker to ear bleed levels or to produce good bass. unless you have some crazy expensive exotic speaker like halo71 mentioned infinity kappa 9's or their other model thats like 7ft tall with 32 mids & tweets! fact is most of you have no clue how many real watts are being pushed to your speakers. as i mentioned before, yes a high power QUALITY amp will usually always sound better than a low power amp especially in bass heavy music on power hungry speakers due to the extended headroom or "reserve" power it has, but to make statements like they are matter of fact about how a 102db SPL soeaker "needs" "massive power" is simply not true.
i also agree that at some DB point, youre not really listening to the music in a critical manner, where you can appreciate the linear response & pick out individual instruments & their subtle nuances etc etc, you are now just blaring the music & it all blends into a 1 dimensional level of "noise" for lack of a better term.... or as one member said, just standing in front of a marshal stack, that is far from the norm of music enjoyment in a home situation in an average room. trust that i can appreciate both types of music listening, i've been to countless big venue big band rock concerts in my time & i own what are probably one of the loudest speakers ever built, if not the loudest, klipsch corner horns. ive driven them with everything from low watt vintage gear like marantz 25wpc to high power high current amps like adcom gfa555ii @ 200wpc (even ran 2 of the adcom amps bridged to 600wpc for a short time) & i can say that the marantz sounded best overall unless i wanted ear bleed punch you in the chest volume levels. each listening situation can vary greatly based on many factors such as room size, & desired constant volume, if youre a DJ using your speakers for weddings or large venues then obviously you need massive power to reach constant decible levels, but if youre listening on a more critical level & want to enjoy the music & not show off or brag to your friends about how loud your speakers can go, then you simply do not need massive power & most quality receivers at 60-80watts are more than enough. so its all relative to what the user wants, just dont make blanket statements like youre situation is the one & only situation that matters or you MUST have massive power.
this thread has seemed to get off topic from the OP's questions & statements that his particular CV speakers lack bass. i think its the 45HZ drop off that is the main cause of his perception of lack of bass & that he is comparing them to other speakers that dig deeper & produce better bass than the CV's. but it would be a good idea to check the polarity as mentioned above, or simply trace all the wires from the back of the speaker terminal cup, also explaining what was done to the x-overs, he said he "cleaned them up" but dirt is never an issue on xovers, its the internal electronic measurements that determine if a capacitor is bad. so if the x-overs are untouched from the original configuration & the wires from the terminals are wired red to black (+ & -) to the x-over & then to the drivers, there is a 99.9% chance they are in phase or correct polarity... he just doesnt like the bass. time to move on or live with them for what they are... bass lacking run of the mill average speakers.
sorry for the long post, but this thread could go on forever with the back & forth opinions & myths about watts vs SPL vs any given listening scenario.. just enjoy the music!
Last edited:
And another situation of we all hear differently. Big power increases headroom and to my ears sounds better. Small power is good too, I have receivers ranging from 20wpc to 120wpc. Amps from 50wpc to 200wpc. Guess which ones are currently in service.
The fact the folks can use little power to enjoy the CV's is great. But, I am sure once the power goes up, so does the enjoyment.
The fact the folks can use little power to enjoy the CV's is great. But, I am sure once the power goes up, so does the enjoyment.
whoaru99
Epic Member
In these discussion I think many fail because statements are made too generically. Headroom, for example. What do you really mean? Dynamic power headroom or operating headroom?
In generic terms, using 1W of a 10W amp with Klipshorns is about the same operating headroom as using 60W of a 600W amp with something like my Thiel CS3.6. Point being, context and details do matter.
In generic terms, using 1W of a 10W amp with Klipshorns is about the same operating headroom as using 60W of a 600W amp with something like my Thiel CS3.6. Point being, context and details do matter.
Wikipedia explains it well.
Analog audio[edit]
In analog audio, headroom can mean low-level signal capabilities as well as the amount of extra power reserve available within the amplifiers that drive the loudspeakers.
Chris Brown
Super Member
When I'm having the overload lights on my 240wpc amplifier blink from pushing the amp so hard, and when I have to replace the 2.5amp fuses in the D-9s with 3amp fuses to keep them from blowing, I think it's pretty clear that the amp wasn't just loafing along...
You don't seem to be allowing for the fact that bass itself is something that can be listened to critically and enjoyed even at loud volumes. In fact, I would argue that it is at these loud volumes where quality bass becomes most important. The ability to not just hear the bass, but feel it too, is what makes many speakers so fun and enjoyable to listen to. Bass isn't just defined by how loud it is, it can have it's own texture. The way you feel the bass hit your body can change due to any number of variables, many of which can indeed be improved by having more available power. Also, many here are not afraid to use EQ. Loud bass doesn't automatically mean that the vocal range, etc, is being brought up to dangerous levels.
But it's okay to make blanket statements about how the only people who benefit from lots of power must not care about listening critically, must be a DJ, or are just bragging to their friends?
Did we figure out why these cerwins don't have bass?
Jayrosc
Super Member
As the OP, I've concluded that these speakers are functioning as intended. Despite CV's reputation for bringing big bass, and I'm sure other models do, these do not. And for the record, by cleaning the crossover I mean that I used deoxit to get rid of scratchy sounds in all the mid and hi frequency dials and also opened up the reset switches that protect the tweeters and gave them a spray and que tip cleaning because both tweeters were silent. Now, both tweeters work and all four tone controls operate very smoothly, quietly and effectively. And no, I'm not going to recap them just to verify that, indeed, these just suck in the bass department. Bottom line, I'm convinced they are a very bright and clear speaker that plays very loud, period. Bass is there, sure, but not loud and not low. A footnote: I never expected this thread to yield so much dialogue and information, but I'm glad it did. I learned, once again, that AKer's are a valuable resource for knowledge.
Plus I learned the cool battery trick!
Thanks to all.
J
Plus I learned the cool battery trick!
Thanks to all.
J
DEFTECHY
Well-Known Member
chris brown: no disrespect intended, but i think you are either misreading my posts or simply not understanding them fully or just trying to argue your opinion over mine... i never said your amp or anyones amp was "loafing along". the "overload" lights blinking on your amp are most likely whats called clipping, the indicators are telling you your amp is being driven above its rated distortion & is clipping, it does NOT mean its hitting its rated max power... running amps at clipping or above will blow the most power hungry speakers even if you arent hitting their max wattage. if you are blowing fuses on d-9's & your amp is clipping.. you should probably turn the volume knob down a few notches or get a better amp that can drive the speakers to those levels.. without clipping.
& again the other replies to my comments are taken out of context or misunderstood... i understand bass is very subjective & is the perception of the listener, yes loud bass requires higher power & can be enjoyable at higher volumes, ive said numerous times i love loud bass & high volumes, i wouldnt be running cornerhorns on 200wpc if i didnt, nor would i have big subwoofers or back in the day used MTX tower speakers with a total of 8 12" woofers. i like loud bass. but i also like more reasonable volumes where i can appreciate ALL of the music. my comments were for music as a whole, at higher power levels some here are referring to, you lose the critical listening of all the rest of the music in the midd bass to midrange & tweeter levels, its like standing in front of a marshal stack at a bar or being in the front few rows of a mosh pit at a slipknot concert... essentially it's just noise. hence the DJ scenario or bragging to friends.. sorry but IMO cranking 100+ continuous watts to big cerwin vega or other mid-fi type speakers is nothing more than bragging rights & exagerated volumes that do not allow one to appreciate the rest of the MUSIC, unless your appreciation is solely based on feeling the bass. & 90% of rock music or any music usually doesnt go that low where you can only feel it vs hearing it, that type of bass is usually only in movie soundtracks with LFE signals or rap/techno or pipe organs....
furthermore, there is more to bass than just watts, things like damping factors & amperage current have a large effect on bass or quality of bass. most modern or semi-vintage receivers have under 100 damping factor numbers... my seperate rotel 200wpc amp has a 1000 damping factor! thats what i meant by blanket statements saying you need massive power. for the majority of situations & speakers, you do not. so at risk of sounding redundant.. i do enjoy loud bass with high power, but i realized after i graduated to "better" speakers & gear that theres a lot more to music than shear volume. but to each their own i guess.
jayrosc: thanks for clarifying what you did to the mid/tweet dials & protection circuits, saying you cleaned the x-overs was confusing as you didnt really touch the x-overs themselves. hopefully any further replies can stay on topic, i apologize if some misread my commments or took them the wrong way, was just stating my opinions based on some facts pertaining to what some others have said. carry on.
& again the other replies to my comments are taken out of context or misunderstood... i understand bass is very subjective & is the perception of the listener, yes loud bass requires higher power & can be enjoyable at higher volumes, ive said numerous times i love loud bass & high volumes, i wouldnt be running cornerhorns on 200wpc if i didnt, nor would i have big subwoofers or back in the day used MTX tower speakers with a total of 8 12" woofers. i like loud bass. but i also like more reasonable volumes where i can appreciate ALL of the music. my comments were for music as a whole, at higher power levels some here are referring to, you lose the critical listening of all the rest of the music in the midd bass to midrange & tweeter levels, its like standing in front of a marshal stack at a bar or being in the front few rows of a mosh pit at a slipknot concert... essentially it's just noise. hence the DJ scenario or bragging to friends.. sorry but IMO cranking 100+ continuous watts to big cerwin vega or other mid-fi type speakers is nothing more than bragging rights & exagerated volumes that do not allow one to appreciate the rest of the MUSIC, unless your appreciation is solely based on feeling the bass. & 90% of rock music or any music usually doesnt go that low where you can only feel it vs hearing it, that type of bass is usually only in movie soundtracks with LFE signals or rap/techno or pipe organs....
furthermore, there is more to bass than just watts, things like damping factors & amperage current have a large effect on bass or quality of bass. most modern or semi-vintage receivers have under 100 damping factor numbers... my seperate rotel 200wpc amp has a 1000 damping factor! thats what i meant by blanket statements saying you need massive power. for the majority of situations & speakers, you do not. so at risk of sounding redundant.. i do enjoy loud bass with high power, but i realized after i graduated to "better" speakers & gear that theres a lot more to music than shear volume. but to each their own i guess.
jayrosc: thanks for clarifying what you did to the mid/tweet dials & protection circuits, saying you cleaned the x-overs was confusing as you didnt really touch the x-overs themselves. hopefully any further replies can stay on topic, i apologize if some misread my commments or took them the wrong way, was just stating my opinions based on some facts pertaining to what some others have said. carry on.
Last edited:
xero-D-hero
Super Member
A good friend that has CV D-9,CV Cls-215,and Kappa9's would disagree that his CV's dont like big wpc amps.The CV's were the most efficient speaker I've owned. Very very easy to drive with as little as a 25 watt tube amp to ear splitting levels. They are not power hogs in the least. Now Infinity Kappa 9's....those are power hogs!
Lowest power amp he typically uses for any of those ^^^^ speakers is a 300/2 Sunfire amp,and that thing is a monster,it doubles down everytime the ohms drop,300wpc into 8ohms,600wpc into 4ohms,1200wpc into 2ohms,and that amp is stable down to 1ohm. That 300/2 is one of the few 2ch. stereo amps he's found that can reliably drive those Kappa9's. And that 300/2 Sunfire amp never runs outta steam,never gets hot,and it never clips,no matter how hard it's being driven,it's truly an amazing amp,so yeah Bob Carver probably know's WTF he's doing.
That's the same amp my friend used for his CV's,those Cls-215 are his "daily driver" speakers (that's 4x 15" woofers folks),and these Cls-215 do infact sound superb,not at all typical of the CV "party speaker" reputation. Without hesitation I'd put those Cls 215 up against just about any high-end speaker,heck they give those Kappa9's a definite run for their money,and nobody would dare to imply that those K9's are a "party speaker" simply because they're big & loud.
His other amp(s) are 500wpc Bryston mono-blocks (7B-ST),these are currently his primary amp(s).
So that Sunfire 300/2 has been relegated to doing back-up duty these days.
Could he use his 130wpc Yamaha AX-930U integrated to power his CV speakers,yeah sure he could.
Does he use that Yamaha integrated amp to drive his CV's,nope.
Why wont he use that Yamaha with the CV's ???
Beacuse the CV's just sound better with the "big" amps...
Heck he could even use his curbside find XXwpc Realistic reciever to power his CV.
Though if one even suggested doing so,I'm sure he'd laugh at them for even mentioning such folly.
Either the 300/2 -or- the Bryston mono-blocks can get crazy loud with the CV's no-doubt-about-that.
But I can personally attest that the low volume detail is really sweet with those big amps & CV speakers.
Of course YMMV....
FYI: It's not the 2 midbass couplers (1 per speaker),the 2 mids (again 1 per speaker) nor the 6 tweeters (3 per speaker) that make the Kappa9's hard to drive...
And to anyone saying high efficiency always = easy to play loud with low wpc,well FYI the rated efficiency spec for the Kappa 9 is 102db/1w/1m.
So anyone using the Kappa 9 as an example of a "difficult to drive" speaker that needs a bunch of wpc to drive vs. the CV being an "easy to drive" speaker that can be driven with low wpc amps,based solely off the given efficiency ratings of each of those speakers,well they had better rethink that logic,as it is clearly flawed.
Anyhow,in closing.
Does anyone NEED a big amp to drive Cerwin Vega's,clearly no they dont.
Are CV's going to sound better being driven by a big 'ol amp,well that can clearly be debated ad-infinitum.
I've heard CV's being driven by all sorts of gear thru the years,and I'll take the "more wpc is better" side everytime.
I would'nt even bother to drive mine with <100wpc...
JMO
Bret P.
Last edited:
Yeah its called clipping! lol If you are putting larger fuses in them, its a matter of time before a tweeter or mid blows out. Or even a cap on the xo. I JUST repaired a pair of CV LS-12's for a guy at work. Who put larger fuses in them than whats recommended. Blown mids in both cabinets. And a bulged cap on one of the xo's. Also there is more to an amplifier than just it rated wpc output. I've seen a good quality high current 165 wpc amp drive Polk SDA3.1's to chest thumping levels. While a 300wpc "pro amp" **** itself.
xero, you need to read up on what makes the Kappa 9 a hard speaker to drive. There's a wee bit more to it than how efficient the speaker is!
Apologies to the OP for joining in on the derailing of this thread. I hope you get things sorted out and enjoy your speakers.
xero, you need to read up on what makes the Kappa 9 a hard speaker to drive. There's a wee bit more to it than how efficient the speaker is!
Apologies to the OP for joining in on the derailing of this thread. I hope you get things sorted out and enjoy your speakers.
xero-D-hero
Super Member
No I dont,that was my point exactly.xero, you need to read up on what makes the Kappa 9 a hard speaker to drive. There's a wee bit more to it than how efficient the speaker is!
You were among those who were implying that high efficiency speakers automatically = easy to drive.
I just pointed out that your using the Kappa 9 as the antithesis of that was flawed.
And I let everyone reading this thread know exactly what the kappa 9 efficiency spec was to prove my point.
I know plenty about the Kappa 9's,I can go listen to a pair just about any time I wanna listen to a pair.
And I have done plenty of reading on them too,so I know more about them than the average fella knows.
Simply put: Efficiency in & of itself does NOT determine how easy -or- difficult a given speaker is to "drive".
The implication being made was that just because CV speakers tend to have high efficiency numbers as SOP,that they have to be easy to drive. And then the Kappa 9 was offered as an example of the exact opposite of that premise,but again that entire premise is flawed,as the Kappa 9 also have a very high efficiency spec,that despite being a notoriously difficult to drive speaker (AKA: the amp killer).
That fact alone should end this line of the current discussion,but I doubt it will.
Everyone here is free to try and drive their speakers with whatever they feel they can drive them with.
But some folks are bound to have hit & miss results if they choose to ignore the bigger picture.
One should never get too caught up with just the rated specifications.
FWIW
Bret P.
Last edited:
My last post in this thread....
I never once said or implied the Kappa 9 was easy or should be easy to drive due to its efficiency rating.
And the simple fact is CV speakers are easier to drive than many other speakers. The pair I was talking about I recently repaired were being driven on a run of the mill Onkyo AVR. I think around 85 watts. I've heard them so loud they sounded like nothing more than static and loud flabby and boomy bass. Right at clipping. I tend to value my hearing better than some I guess. And at that same level my buddy thought they sounded good.
I'm out now.
I never once said or implied the Kappa 9 was easy or should be easy to drive due to its efficiency rating.
And the simple fact is CV speakers are easier to drive than many other speakers. The pair I was talking about I recently repaired were being driven on a run of the mill Onkyo AVR. I think around 85 watts. I've heard them so loud they sounded like nothing more than static and loud flabby and boomy bass. Right at clipping. I tend to value my hearing better than some I guess. And at that same level my buddy thought they sounded good.
I'm out now.
xero-D-hero
Super Member
I never said you did such,quite the opposite.
And I never said they were easy to drive either,again quite the opposite...
halo71 said:
That just the supports the premise that those CV LS-12 speakers needed more power,not less.
FWIW
Bret P.
Last edited: