Crites Ti Tweeter Diphragms
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moray james
Super Member
Congratulations and glad t hear that you are pleased. the Tweeter covers a small part of the sound you hear. Wait till you try the Titanium mid diaphragm it takes the speaker to a whole other league in terms of performance. Best regards Moray James.
njcanuck
aka: MacGyver
You can't get Ti mids from Bob but you can get them direct from Klipsch. You don't 'need' a different crossover for them but you can add a bandpass filter to prevent overlap with the tweeter (Bob does sell those). Some people say there's no need for it. I installed them and really liked how it smoothed out the top end. YMMV
libertycaps
Analogue "AAA" vinyl.
^Likely my next and final upgrade/mod to my Cornie2's. Still have the stock horns left in mine. Will be keeping them too. (Just in case...)
I thought I read, that even from Klipsch, they were a "service only" part. Do I just need to fry my mids to be able to buy them?
moray james
Super Member
Klipsch have a policy that parts are for service not upgrade. You will have to meet the requirements of their policy if you want to get the parts. You can look between the lines and see many options to obtaining what you want. I think the less said publicly about this the better for those who want parts. Trust me would I LIE to you. Best regards Moray James.
SET12
Super Member
:thmbsp: On what Moray said,
I have had 3 mids in my Fortes and of the 3 the Ti @ $165/pair was by far for me the winner, second up was Bob's and Bob's are less then 1/2 the cost. Bob's were quite good after 40-50hrs of play time for me, at first the stage sounded smaller to me and they had a lower dynamic impact then as the hrs poured on they bloomed out wonderfully with impact coming up to speed.
The Ti's are a whole different ball game, very smooth out of the box and nearly surreal in the their ability to follow the signal with power. I once thought I was hearing my amplifiers clip with the other mids, less so with Bob's. But the Ti is in another league all together as I was astonished at how far I had to push my amplifiers to hear them clip vs using the other mids.
An option for the Forte II is to push the tweeter crossover up using the Forte 1 coupling caps which are 1.5uf's instead of the 2uf's of the Forte II. With my Forte 1's I found no need for the bandpass. I have actually run some simulations and found the Forte 1 to be closer to the 7k crossover rather then the published 6k they claim. The Forte II specs claim 7k and running the simulation for the Forte II suggests that the 2uf caps are closer to the 6k crossover point which makes sense to me as the larger cap size has the lower high pass frequency.
Of course if you look on ALK's site the tweeter network was wrong all together. The second cap should be much higher in value. But that's not to say that a stock speaker wouldn't sound good to you subjectively.
And of course you could go with Bob's Bandpass, but its not a solution for me as I have a difficult time listening with any Iron Core Inductors as there is just to much damage to the sound IMO and I can say this because I have had a pair of stock Fortes to contrast my own modified Fortes and the difference is not in the least subtle but understand of course my source is highly modified and my amplifiers are very extreme in performance as well, so YMMV
SET12
I have had 3 mids in my Fortes and of the 3 the Ti @ $165/pair was by far for me the winner, second up was Bob's and Bob's are less then 1/2 the cost. Bob's were quite good after 40-50hrs of play time for me, at first the stage sounded smaller to me and they had a lower dynamic impact then as the hrs poured on they bloomed out wonderfully with impact coming up to speed.
The Ti's are a whole different ball game, very smooth out of the box and nearly surreal in the their ability to follow the signal with power. I once thought I was hearing my amplifiers clip with the other mids, less so with Bob's. But the Ti is in another league all together as I was astonished at how far I had to push my amplifiers to hear them clip vs using the other mids.
An option for the Forte II is to push the tweeter crossover up using the Forte 1 coupling caps which are 1.5uf's instead of the 2uf's of the Forte II. With my Forte 1's I found no need for the bandpass. I have actually run some simulations and found the Forte 1 to be closer to the 7k crossover rather then the published 6k they claim. The Forte II specs claim 7k and running the simulation for the Forte II suggests that the 2uf caps are closer to the 6k crossover point which makes sense to me as the larger cap size has the lower high pass frequency.
Of course if you look on ALK's site the tweeter network was wrong all together. The second cap should be much higher in value. But that's not to say that a stock speaker wouldn't sound good to you subjectively.
And of course you could go with Bob's Bandpass, but its not a solution for me as I have a difficult time listening with any Iron Core Inductors as there is just to much damage to the sound IMO and I can say this because I have had a pair of stock Fortes to contrast my own modified Fortes and the difference is not in the least subtle but understand of course my source is highly modified and my amplifiers are very extreme in performance as well, so YMMV
SET12
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SET12
Super Member
moray james
Super Member
nrap: personally I agree with SET12 and I find the Klipsch filter fix unacceptable. I would not consider listening to the filter that Klipsch uses. I would either leave it be or do as SET12 did which makes sense. To me the Klipsch fix is worse than the ill, not recommended. Best regards Moray James.
SET12
Super Member
Yes here is the schematic and it is the mid used in the Heresy III and others and yes you can use the bandpass mod but really replacing the 2uf caps with 1.5uf is easier, it works for me but if you already have a stock network that your using then I think you might as well use the Klipsch fix I guess it really would likely make much of a difference IMO. But if you were using air cores as I am that network is likely to kill the benefit I hear from air cores that I use and that's nothing subtle.
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Frank Sol
Lunatic Member
About the Ti Mid in Forte' (I) : I think 80% would notice a positive change in going with them. I also think 70% of the 80% would be happy without adjusting the XO
(I pulled those %s outta my ass but will stick with them)
I have adjusted my external XOs and am happy. The best change IMO was lowering the Woofer cap. YMMV
(I pulled those %s outta my ass but will stick with them)
I have adjusted my external XOs and am happy. The best change IMO was lowering the Woofer cap. YMMV
nrap
Active Member
Thanks for all the info guys. Love the forte ii and love modding.
I'll call klipsch tomorrow and tell them I need new heresy III mid diaphragms. Will they sound worse than they do now if I roll in the ti diaphragms and just go stock on the crossovers for now?
I'll call klipsch tomorrow and tell them I need new heresy III mid diaphragms. Will they sound worse than they do now if I roll in the ti diaphragms and just go stock on the crossovers for now?
moray james
Super Member
why don't you do some searching and see what others who have installed Ti mids have to say. I have put them (Ti mids) in my Heresy in my Forte in my Forte ll and in my KLF20 (two pair). I have not added the filter to any of those and I am very pleased with the results. I also have a pair of H3 which uses the filter discussed here and they sound good but I will likely sell them before I play with the crossovers. I like my Heresy and will keep them around as they don't have the resale value of the H3. Good luck with the mids and let us know what you think when you get them installed in your Forte ll.
After the diaphragms are done you might want to consider looking into brace work for your cabinets and then there is re tuning the passives and more fun to come with other tweaks you can try. Best regards Moray James.
After the diaphragms are done you might want to consider looking into brace work for your cabinets and then there is re tuning the passives and more fun to come with other tweaks you can try. Best regards Moray James.
SET12
Super Member
Moray, try and play around this crossover calculator as I have.
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
This calculator is for two-ways but it doesn't matter as you can look at individual network calculations like the tweeter network even though we are using 3-way networks
Going down to a 3rd order network I typed in 8.5 ohm's accounting for some tweeter Inductance and it could easily be higher.
And a 6000hz crossover point. You can us anything in the low pass as it doesn't matter the high pass stay's the same.
I came up with a 2uf cap for the first cap a .169mH inductor and a 6.24uf second cap.
What you will see is how the second cap is way out of line as ALK pointed out at his site http://www.alkeng.com/
Problem(3) The tweeter filter, by Paul Klipsch's own admission, was designed using long outmoded "constant K" methods. This method is for filters that are to be used between EQUAL impedances. It yields a symmetrical filter that can only operate smoothly between symmetrical load and source impedances. A tweeter is 8 Ohms and an amp is a voltage source. It's less that 1/10 of an ohm! It's WRONG! It results in a filter that has a very rough response and a lot of loss. The measured performance of the AA tweeter filter is shown. It has a 2 dB "sag" and 2.6 dB loss at 20 Khz! The loss is partly due to old dried out caps, but the "sag" is just bad design! As a matter of fact, component loss actually acts to mask this type of sag. If you replace the caps with new ones, the sag will get WORSE!
But if you look at the first cap for 6000Hz its 2uf!
Now type in 7000hz and 9-9.5 ohm's account for a rise in impedance from the tweeter inductance and you'll see a cap value of about 1.6uF.
I have tried the higher value second caps and liked what I heard, but my output impedance of my amps are 4 ohm's for an 8 ohm load so some variance may very well be allowed. A SS is another story as ALK points out.
SET12
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moray james
Super Member
Set 12: thank you for your post and the great information. this will take me some time to digest I am a non crossover savy kind of guy. Best regards Moray James.
I am very happy with my Quartet's that have the Ti mids with Crites crossover networks and bandpass filter add-on. They are definitely not as hot on the upper end. I would say they are a little smoother and better balanced. Of coarse, my point of reference is the stock crossover, since the Crites networks already had the bandpass filter add-on when I installed them.
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