Dual 1019 or Garrard Zero 100...?

[soma89]

Hello everyone,
I just got an offer by a friend's Dad to trade my Dual 1019 for his Garrard Zero 100. Both tables work well...should i do it?
I like my Dual 1019 but I don't know much about the Garrard Zero 100.

 

[mhardy6647]

They're both awfully complicated pieces of machinery. Personally, I'd look elswherere... but if that's the choice, the Dual is the better built and engineered of the two.

 

[dshoaf]

The Zero 100 was one of Garrard's last gasp attempts to be a high-end TT company after years of producing basic, entry-level tables in volume for the consuming masses. Much like the BSR 810s, they offered some cute but not necessarily compelling features.

The Z100 offered the pivoting head system that addressed the alignment issues. Unfortunately, the build quality was not up to what the Japanese were beginning to offer and mechanical complexity was quite high.

The Duals, on the other hand, were solidly engineered, well supported in the US by United Audio, and reliable. Thorens was another company with similar characteristics.

I'd stay with the Dual unless the whole deal has other compelling reasons to be consummated.

Cheers,

David

 

[131east23]

dshoaf has it right. The Dual is a more reliable table and at this point in Garrard's history (Zero 100) you have an immediate falling off of quality after the Zero 100 fails to deliver. However, if the Zero 100 was pristine and was working flawlessly you might consider it over a grungy Dual, but I would tend to stick with the Dual. My Dual has been going strong for 34 years! In my opinion my Garrard Lab 80 was the last "best built" mass produced record changer that Garrard made and it predates the Zero 100 by 8 to 10 years I think.

 

[OvenMaster]

Keep the Dual.

 

[secretguy]

Dual, without question.

 

[24HACKER]

Dual, without question.

What he said

 

[Beobloke]

The Dual is better built, more reliable and less likely to need rebuilding every few years.

However, having owned both, I would say that IF the Garrard is in good condition, IF it is working well and IF it is an earlier variant that the factory managed to screw together properly then it has the potential to offer better sound quality than the Dual, IMHO.

Mind you, that's a lot of 'IFs'.........

 

[guiller]

I' ve got a Dual 1019 from 1966 that I use to spin 78 rpm records and I am still amazed on how well and smoothly it behaves under those stressing conditions. I cannot comment on the Garrard, though.

 

[teac4010]

My Zero 100 sounds better than my Lab 80 on the inner tracks. Never had or heard a Dual. Owning a zero is like owning an old Jag. .

Linear tracking, or close to it (Zero 100), trumps all the short (<12 inches) single pivot tonearms IMHO and Loefgren's. Peace Regards.

 

[Rybeam]

The Zero 100 was a solution looking for a problem. A moving head shell is not a good idea IMO.

 

[Arkay]

Most of the posts so far have it right: the Dual is more solidly made, less temperamental, etc... than the somewhat finicky Zero 100, which seems to have suffered from greatly variable quality as it came out of the factory. Get a good Zero 100, and maintain it, and you'll be okay, but it seems most are not good and require regular maintenance. Restore the Dual once, and you'll be set for years. That said, get a good Zero 100 and you'll also probably have somewhat better sound than you'd get from the Dual... but there is no guarantee of it when you're getting an "unknown" Zero 100. If the Garrard was at all abused and the arm bearings have loosened, then it won't sound so good, and there is no way to restore those bearings once they are damaged.

The Dual is the "safer" choice, for sure. I think I'd stick with it.

On the other hand, if you ever find a Garrard 301, 401, 4HF or Lab 80 TT to swap, don't hesitate; they are all better than your Dual. Likewise, if you find a Dual 1219 or 1229, those would be upgrades. But there is nothing wrong with your 1019; keep it and enjoy it, until something definitely better comes along.

 

[Nat]

If you want wacky coolosity, the Garrard has it. For regular use, I'd stick with the Dual. It might be worth seeing what both tables seem to be going for recently -- I'm not sure that its really an even trade.

 

[teac4010]

The Zero 100 was a solution looking for a problem. A moving head shell is not a good idea IMO.

Well, I'd say a mis-tracking fixed head shell is a problem, like all fixed head shells on short single pivot tonearms, as shown mathematically by Loefgren a long time ago and sonically evident to some in the 21st century. :yes:

Regards.

 

[teac4010]

I looked at a Dual 1019 idler recently. Great drive system. Tonearm is average. Considering morphing a Zero tracker in its place, maybe. :scratch2::scratch2:

Regards.

 

[Nat]

The theory of zero tracking error is compelling, and really good linear arms sound very good indeed -- tracking error is audible. But implementation is everything -- a bad linear arm will be off almost all the time, as will an incorrectly aligned one. The problem with the pivoting arm of the Zero 100 is that the bearings aren't perfect -- there is some slop, and later, they can get dirty and sticky -- and the extra arm raises the mass and increases resonances.
It's not a solution in search of a problem, but its debatable if the cure isn't as bad as the disease.
None the less, its a cool piece of machinery, one I'd be glad to own.

 

[stereofisher]

Stay with the Dual...

The Girard Zero 100 had its issues. If you are familiar with them-mechanically they arent horrible. Since I specialize in Duals, they are more familiar to me. Doesnt mean I wouldnt have a Zero 100. Find a good one and its mine. Dont really have room for anymore tables here at the Inn. Four Duals are hooked up.

Have a 1019 in the sleeping quarters. Like it and its looks. If the headshell is behaving the rest os easy. Lubricate the motor and regrease the gears. Good to go. One thats been tuned up will run along time.

Mechanically inclined you might try the Girard, if not stick with you Dual. Or do both! If you got the room!

Good Luck..Eric

 

[teac4010]

The theory of zero tracking error is compelling, .....

Tracking error is more than theory as evidenced by the complex mechanisms and procedures attempting to minimize it.

.......a bad linear arm will be off almost all the time, as will an incorrectly aligned one.

... and we all know tracking error with the Garrard Zero Arm was/is demonstrably/measured to be almost zero, don't we?

The problem with the pivoting arm of the Zero 100 is that the bearings aren't perfect -- there is some slop,

..... and when adjusted properly there is no slop.

and later, they can get dirty and sticky --

... yep, ...... and if you can't take care of that problem .......:sigh:

and the extra arm raises the mass and increases resonances.

Optimum Tonearm mass is debatable, isn't it?:yes:

Tonearm resonances are addressed with many different solutions? :yes:

It's not a solution in search of a problem, but its debatable if the cure isn't as bad as the disease.

I don't like tracking error phase distortion. I haven't noticed the other problems you've pointed out

None the less, its a cool piece of machinery, one I'd be glad to own.

They are a "pain" after the original fascination wears off. :yes:

Peace. Regards.

 

[Nat]

Don't know how to respond gracefully to this picking apart of my comments. But obviously tracking error is real -- what I was trying to get at is that in theory, the solutions to it are perfect, but in practice they all introduce complexity and very often other problems which may be as bad as the error being corrected. As long as money is unlimited (and you can put the air pump in another room), the problems can be minimized, but in more normal circumstances, compromises have to be made.
So: If you are going to specify that users will always align cartridges perfectly, and that the bearings in the arm are perfectly adjusted (a notion that will cause considerable hilarity among owners of moderate priced british products of the 70s) and that all users knows how to clean them and how often, then okay. And I guess that if you believe that arm mass and resonances don't matter, or can be fixed with different solutions (unspecified, but it odd that if they exist, everyone isn't using them), than there's no debate here.
I guess I'm less optimistic than you are.

 

[elcoholic]

I almost picked up a clean Zero100 recently but it wasn't working properly and the guy wouldn't come down on his price. Admittedly my interest in it is as a curiosity, not a main player. For the right price I wouldn't mind tinkering with one to see what I could do with it.