Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

[GChief]

ok let me put it this way....

you live in hooterville, you buy a model 3, you dont drive very far by rote, and there are 4 model 3 capable charging stations around, plus you bought the super advanced 240v charger for home. You clearly have infrastructure in place. But I erred in only using that word. understandable because for the last 20 years the news hotspot has been americas failing power grid infrastructure and how if the russians only detonated a small nuke high up over central pa they could wipe out 1/4 of the US capacity.....

You are happy and sipping a beer.

But lets suppose I had a calculator. lets suppose I found that for your average daily car use, it only requires a medium amazon prime box full of 'n' KJ's of energy - and said energy could be contained in a medium amazon prime box.

Today, you went to one of many filling stations and got this energy from a 'gas pump' - (n) - evil planet killing device that causes wars and diabetes

doing such, places at most, a micro fractional load on this infrastructure...a few watts to have a light, a watt to process the debit card payment, and a dozen watts to pump it.

tomorrow however, you plugged in, to get the same KJ of energy - memba how I said energy is energy? only this time the entire payload came across your infrastructure, and will in the future, and did not previously, how did it affect capacity?

not much you say, it took it like a man. but what if EVERYONE on your block did the same. THAT is the problem.

many of us live in established neighborhoods. many of us live in these neighborhoods near undeveloped areas. then one day they decide to develope that land and what is the FIRST thing they do? (yeah yeah after they pay bribes and force old people off their land....)

They run a new trunk line, gas line, and bury a completely new power grid as tapping into the old one would not work - not enough capacity.

Seen it, lived it, been there, done that, wrote the book, ate the donut.

now expand this to <insert state of choice>. then expand this to the USA?

Take my thesis dealing with the DAILY only consumption in the USA of gasoline ONLY. convert to amazon boxes of KJ.s get it into MW or GW form. compare to current US capacity. we there yet?

It is true that YOUR unregulated market choice is not a problem. But your town/county/state's unregulated market choice *IS*.

Im not saying dont go from 'A' to 'B'. I am saying, plan and build for 'B prime' FIRST. we do not only have 9 years left as commonly spouted and accepted.. we do have the 20 or so to undertake this work.

I understand what your saying. It does not mean it’s not coming at full speed. Ranting on an Internet forum will change nothing but maybe make you feel better.

It still a very viable option for us. You do you and I will do me.

 

[HTHMAN]

I think we all agree that we need infrastructure before any of this works. I stated at the beginning that this was not a political thread. The problem our politicians have is prioritizing. It is easy to say we must have XX by year YYYY, but have no practical path to achieve that goal. Electric vehicles are probably the clean future. Powering them cleanly is the challenge. The free market will solve it-eventually.

 

[rhodus]

I understand what your saying. It does not mean it’s not coming at full speed. Ranting on an Internet forum will change nothing but maybe make you feel better.

It still a very viable option for us. You do you and I will do me.

How many solar panels will your system have? What do you think your average production needs will be? How much wind power do you estimate you will be able to capture? How many EVs will you have?

 

[GChief]

How many solar panels will your system have? What do you think your average production needs will be? How much wind power do you estimate you will be able to capture? How many EVs will you have?

We are not in the house yet, but we close on March 4. The rough plan right now is 20 Tesla SC325 panels on two portable trailers, kind of the same set up in our current tiny house but way bigger, this one was just an experiment (and cheap components). I will build the three 3.5kw wind turbines myself. I also have a 12.5kw diesel genset for **** hits the fan times. We will still be hooked up to the grid. I also have a Fujitsu 4 zone mini split, super efficient, on the way. Most the heat will be from a rocket mass heating system that will also do closed loop water floor radiant heat. I would normally do that system myself (have done a few with friends in the past) but just do not have the time so I have contractors set up for that. It’s only a 760sqft with great insulation, it was built in 2016 as a “green” house. Looking at normal weather patterns this house is in a prime location for wind and solar, that is one of the reasons it was built where it is. My planned system will be extreme over kill. The grid power already runs into a detached “utility” shed and the power panel is in there, as mentioned this house was built green and with the intent to be off grid so it’s pretty much put the rest of the required systems in the shed and hook everything up.

If we do an EV it would only be one, GF works full time from home, I will do about a 45ish mile drive one way, same as now (depends on where I am working) so it would be for me.

We designed this tiny house we are in now for off grid... not our first rodeo being tree huggers and it’s awesome that this new house was built to do the same.

Edit: what brand and how much storage I want to do will be the big question . I need to research the Generic system.

 

[rhodus]

We are not in the house yet, but we close on March 4. The rough plan right now is 20 Tesla SC325 panels on two portable trailers, kind of the same set up in our current tiny house but way bigger, this one was just an experiment (and cheap components). I will build the three 3.5kw wind turbines myself. I also have a 12.5kw diesel genset for **** hits the fan times. We will still be hooked up to the grid. I also have a Fujitsu 4 zone mini split, super efficient, on the way. Most the heat will be from a rocket mass heating system that will also do closed loop water floor radiant heat. I would normally do that system myself (have done a few with friends in the past) but just do not have the time so I have contractors set up for that. It’s only a 760sqft with great insulation, it was built in 2016 as a “green” house. Looking at normal weather patterns this house is in a prime location for wind and solar, that is one of the reasons it was built where it is. My planned system will be extreme over kill. The grid power already runs into a detached “utility” shed and the power panel is in there, as mentioned this house was built green and with the intent to be off grid so it’s pretty much put the rest of the required systems in the shed and hook everything up.

If we do an EV it would only be one, GF works full time from home, I will do about a 45ish mile drive one way, same as now (depends on where I am working) so it would be for me.

We designed this tiny house we are in now for off grid... not our first rodeo being tree huggers and it’s awesome that this new house was built to do the same.

Edit: what brand and how much storage I want to do will be the big question . I need to research the Generic system.

On the Homebrew Windmills, are you familiar with Otherpower.com in Fort Collins?

 

[GChief]

On the Homebrew Windmills, are you familiar with Otherpower.com in Fort Collins?

Now I am

 

[rhodus]

Now I am

They are Off-Grid Gurus extraordinaire...

 

[Djcoolray]

... of course the 400lb elephant is: stating an intent to go to 'technology b' when you are currently on 'technology a', and the approval point for 'B' and its infrastructure is not in place. basically, to put it in enterprise terms: you are messing with production. In a nutshell, that exposes the people making these decisions: no education or experience. Sure, someday, somehow, 'B' will come about and the 'B' that does come about might not even be the 'B' currently being pushed. But the point it, it aint in place so you in no way shape or form, mess with the viability of 'A' in the meantime. to do such would destabilize or outright destroy our survivability.

To put into Feb21 terms: we pay, right now, for every texas resident to receive for free, a tesla (perhaps the best solution right now marketed) and take away the planet killing gas cars. today. fine.

Now plug the damn things in. Texas was running 42% wind power generation 3 weeks ago. Today it is 8% and the grid collapsed. People cannot even take a **** in their own homes and now we tell them to plug in the cars on a collapsed grid. Insanity. I state again: we should not even have this conversation or attempt this move - even on an individual basis until infrastructure is in place. The way grids work, individual market choices are not regulated. If enough people rush down this path - for any reason - you quickly approach a tipping point to where the only solution is a rolling brown out. anyone paid any attention to Cali for the last 40 years?

People tend to think 'its just me doing it, how much of a difference can it make?'. and then what if 1M people in a nation of 330M make the same choice? Mebbe the regulators need to install a 'capacity and planning' group just like every large company and every utility provider? just saying...

I pay attn to this cuz my state Pa is a large net energy exporter. If something dumb is undertaken to upset that and the PA grid no longer exports, the entire north east USA collapses. The russians surely know this, their published SIOP is a small airburst over pa of a nuke. kill few, destroy little, but turn out the lights to 1/4 of the US population. People lose facebook and netflix and they will surrender to chimpanzees within 3 days.

I was digging into the Texas situation yesterday and found subjective greed part of the frozen conditions in Texas. Then owners of the independent separatists that manage the Texas grid did nothing to prepare for extreme cold weather. They had a cold spell in 2011 and thought they wouldn’t see that kind of cold for another hundred years. The owners don’t even have an emergency hook up to the Western Grid in El Paso. So the aptitude of don’t need to do it cause it doesn’t snow in Texas is like accidentally shooting your best hunting dog and being laughed at by your best friend. Will this situation be able to fix stupid. The Texas grid was built based upon profitability not dependability, because right now there are people paying thousands of dollars next month from the electric bills they just got. Then the owners of the Texas grid blamed renewable energy sources.

Anyone got a picture of an EV stuck in the Texas snow ????

 

[elcoholic]

Perhaps if we can make hydrogen economically in commercial quantity by some other means than as a byproduct of oil refining or we find something more plentiful than platinum for fuel cell membrane. There’s a hydrogen station about a 1/2 mile from the house. The other night it malfunctioned and was venting wide open for about 10 seconds every few minutes for about an hour or so. It was surprisingly loud, like a steam plant blow down loud. Had to go outside to get the direction before I figured it out. Called 911 and they had received lots of calls from the apartment complex across the street. No doubt. It’s not easy to store liquid hydrogen. It’s even harder to make. It takes 40% of the BTU yield from a gallon of gasoline to compress a gallon of hydrogen.

 

[elcoholic]

I was born in ‘56. I was allergic to everything food and environmental which set off my asthma. I was hospitalized several times. I did the desensitization shots, 2 or 3 shots a week for 2 years. Finished in 2nd grade. Took care of everything but cats and house dust until I was in 30’s. When rag weed or something similar blows in off the desert on the Santa Ana’s I’m laid low and reaching for the Claritin.

 

[GChief]

I was born in ‘56. I was allergic to everything food and environmental which set off my asthma. I was hospitalized several times. I did the desensitization shots, 2 or 3 shots a week for 2 years. Finished in 2nd grade. Took care of everything but cats and house dust until I was in 30’s. When rag weed or something similar blows in off the desert on the Santa Ana’s I’m laid low and reaching for the Claritin.

But how many of your classmates where the same? If you where in school now would the answer be the same?

 

[elcoholic]

But how many of your classmates where the same? If you where in school now would the answer be the same?

I don’t know it was 1st and 2nd grade although I didn’t outgrow the asthma until puberty so that was 4th grade My daughter has taught pre-school for 20 years. It’s gone from a couple kids with nut or soy allergies she had to monitor to a nut free campus to a no outside food at all campus. So yes it’s getting worse.

 

[nasadowsk]

Then the owners of the Texas grid blamed renewable energy sources

3/4 of the nukes in Texas managed to ride it out (The owners of South Texas 1 probably have a LOT of explaining to do with the NRC...). Loss of wind put the pressure on underfed NG units, which couldn't handle the weather.

Of course, nuclear is scary, so we can't have that...

 

[Pio1980]

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/wind-turbines-didnt-cause-texas-energy-crisis/

 

[GChief]

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/wind-turbines-didnt-cause-texas-energy-crisis/

Any problems the "green" tech had was from not being spec'ed right when it was sourced and installed. Same as any of the new fossil fuel plants, not built to spec for the conditions they have going on. Thats the problem today, easy to find "info" to support your point, them point out the wind turbines that froze up, but what about the ones that work fine in Canada and other cold climates . Is that a function of deregulation? It would appear to be at this point.

Edit: only glanced the headline, article probably touched on that.

 

[hjames]

You bid to minimum specs, you get the minimum ...

 

[SoCal Sam]

Any problems the "green" tech had was from not being spec'ed right when it was sourced and installed. Same as any of the new fossil fuel plants, not built to spec for the conditions they have going on. Thats the problem today, easy to find "info" to support your point, them point out the wind turbines that froze up, but what about the ones that work fine in Canada and other cold climates . Is that a function of deregulation? It would appear to be at this point.

Edit: only glanced the headline, article probably touched on that.

I'll try to tread lightly... I have looked for white papers on the merits of EV, Hybrid, vs. Gas vehicles. Many of them are sponsored by green industry and tend to distort or underplay key metrics which makes direct comparison in terms of running cost and environmental degradation difficult if not impossible. For example, gas cars always carry mine to tale pipe carbon cost while the cars with Lithium batteries are not assess this cost. The white papers offer bromides such as when recycling becomes universal, the lithium life cycle will be closed. Environment damage from mining Lithium, Cobalt, and Nickel are never assessed or mentioned. Also conspicuously missing from the analysis is the carbon emissions from electricity generation which is assumed to be already transitioned to wind or hydro. Why the obfuscation?

 

[GChief]

I'll try to tread lightly... I have looked for white papers on the merits of EV, Hybrid, vs. Gas vehicles. Many of them are sponsored by green industry and tend to distort or underplay key metrics which makes direct comparison in terms of running cost and environmental degradation difficult if not impossible. For example, gas cars always carry mine to tale pipe carbon cost while the cars with Lithium batteries are not assess this cost. The white papers offer bromides such as when recycling becomes universal, the lithium life cycle will be closed. Environment damage from mining Lithium, Cobalt, and Nickel are never assessed or mentioned. Also conspicuously missing from the analysis is the carbon emissions from electricity generation which is assumed to be already transitioned to wind or hydro. Why the obfuscation?

My post you quoted was about how the green tech is not really the blame for the issues in Texas as some of the the finger pointing would have you believe.

And to your post. I will still seriously consider EV when I am ready to buy.

 

[Pio1980]

Gradual transition to renewables is inevitable, what remains of fossil and other sources remains to be determined as long as the processes, including end users, continue to become "cleaner" and more efficient.

 

[HTHMAN]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread. I have come away with a few understangings.

If you live in the Southwest US where you have an abundance of alternate electric with lots of charging stations, a plug in electric is probably a viable choice both economically as well as clean.

If you live in the colder more Northern less populated areas, it may not make sense either in terms of economy or environmentally as they are still mainly fossil fuel dependent.

With all costs considered, it seems right now, a hybrid may be the best option for most people. YMMV.