Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

[SoCal Sam]

My post you quoted was about how the green tech is not really the blame for the issues in Texas as some of the the finger pointing would have you believe.

And to your post. I will still seriously consider EV when I am ready to buy.

I would like to pick the vehicle type which is the cleanest, most economical, and satisfies my needs. As things stand, there is not enough information to make that determination.

 

[RobRoy]

Most of the electric cars where I live run on coal.

 

[GChief]

I would like to pick the vehicle type which is the cleanest, most economical, and satisfies my needs. As things stand, there is not enough information to make that determination.

I am comfortable with buying one with the available info. But your not me

 

[rhodus]

I'll try to tread lightly... I have looked for white papers on the merits of EV, Hybrid, vs. Gas vehicles. Many of them are sponsored by green industry and tend to distort or underplay key metrics which makes direct comparison in terms of running cost and environmental degradation difficult if not impossible. For example, gas cars always carry mine to tale pipe carbon cost while the cars with Lithium batteries are not assess this cost. The white papers offer bromides such as when recycling becomes universal, the lithium life cycle will be closed. Environment damage from mining Lithium, Cobalt, and Nickel are never assessed or mentioned. Also conspicuously missing from the analysis is the carbon emissions from electricity generation which is assumed to be already transitioned to wind or hydro. Why the obfuscation?

Exactly.

 

[whoaru99]

Gradual transition to renewables is inevitable, what remains of fossil and other sources remains to be determined as long as the processes, including end users, continue to become "cleaner" and more efficient.

IMO, there isn't going to be any big change until it's cheaper to be more green than not. Oh, sure, there are always early adopters and those willing to pay more to "do their part" or whatever one wants to say. But, most will stay with what costs less until it doesn't.

You mentioned gradual, yes, but ultimately it's the $$ that drives the bulk of it.

 

[HTHMAN]

Oh, sure, there are always early adopters and those willing to pay more to "do their part" or whatever one wants to say.

That reminded me of the Bill Gates interview I saw a couple days ago. He was saying that he was using plant based jet fuel for his private plane. Seriously, does he now think that his jet exhaust now putting out vitamins instead of pollution?

 

[GChief]

Seriously, does he now think that his jet exhaust now putting out vitamins instead of pollution?

All you need to do is look at the standard emissions testing differences, it’s pretty obvious. And it’s really just cleaner bio-diesel.

Edit: my diesel Suburban smells like I am making some fries

 

[SoCal Sam]

That reminded me of the Bill Gates interview I saw a couple days ago. He was saying that he was using plant based jet fuel for his private plane. Seriously, does he now think that his jet exhaust now putting out vitamins instead of pollution?

Say what you want about Windows Bill. Unlike some billionaires, at least he is trying. He has financed an air carbon capture plant that is showing some promise. The cost per ton of captured carbon is still too high but costs have come down.

 

[SoCal Sam]

IMO, there isn't going to be any big change until it's cheaper to be more green than not. Oh, sure, there are always early adopters and those willing to pay more to "do their part" or whatever one wants to say. But, most will stay with what costs less until it doesn't.

You mentioned gradual, yes, but ultimately it's the $$ that drives the bulk of it.

Correct. If green tech is truly better, free market would have made the choice. So far, this has not happened without mandates. Eventually, oil will become scarce which will drive up the cost and make green tech competitive. That also has not happened yet.

 

[Alobar]

Problem as I see it, the US power grid is about 50 years away from supporting what people want to go to. energy is energy and it has to come from somewhere., there is no magic bunny. if you replace the KJoules of work a SI or CI engine produces, that is a TREMENDOUS amount - just do the math.

Every so many years I update and republish a 'thesis' I started back in the 90's on the real costs to replace just gasoline with renewable liquid fuels. I never covered the toxic effects of the excess production of NOx and O3 that using oxygenated fuels brings (all alcohol based fuels are oxygenated by nature) and how it would wipe out up to half the population, but rather from the side of how much farming landmass needs to be repurposed for renewables. suffice to say, Exx fuels are quickly running out of favor - there is no positive cost/benefit.

so on we go to alternate sources....fuel cells, batteries.

WE aint there yet. Ignore the 'it goes fast' part and ignore the fact that the part of the car that is NOT 'electric powertrain' can be as elegant as anything else. the electric powertrains, by comparison, are 1920's chevrolets in terms of derivable utility. the cheapest gasoline car can go NY->LA about a *day* faster than any EV, simply because of the range/charge time limitations.

Lets assume we solve that...lets assume we extend range to close to 400 miles per tank (a reasonable highway estimate for about anything) - with the AC on, at night, we got to get the 100% charge time down to 5 minutes instead of '45 minutes for 80%'

The fact still remains that as the US as a whole drop off of gas cars to EVs, the grid, which is becoming more and more unstable as 'green energy' is applied, has to absorb this load. This is the US, we drive a lot as a whole. You can convert the daily gas consumption into Joules and take 25% (a low number) efficiency to make it EV equivalent and quickly find, we do not have the US capacity now, by a long shot.

BUT! its not over. Part of this push is also to remove coal, oil, wood and NG/LPG from home heating and replace with electric. natural gas is the most efficient form of home heating. electric is the LEAST efficient. To change over all the houses as well, AND use solar water heating, would require nearly a tripling of current US generating capacity.

This aint gonna come from wind or solar - in its current form. So there is a lot of work to do. Unfortunately, those in charge of creating this, do not have any education or experience along these lines. So the hurdles we have are gonna get worse - first.

that all being said, even at my advanced age, I think a *differently* powered vehicle will be in my driveway if I live a full life. Just not now.

I would pay attention to MOXIE or however they are spelling on, on perseverance. the catalyst reaction to produce O2 from CO2 has earth bound implications. If they dont ignite the martian atmosphere, it could work here.

There would seem to be another hidden cost of a massive shift to electric. The raw materials for the batteries. Is this going to create another huge environmental disaster in some South American country (Not in my backyard!)?..

 

[SoCal Sam]

There would seem to be another hidden cost of a massive shift to electric. The raw materials for the batteries. Is this going to create another huge environmental disaster in some South American country (Not in my backyard!)?..

There is more than enough Lithium reserves to make the switch but whether it is accessible or not is another question.

 

[rajoo]

There would seem to be another hidden cost of a massive shift to electric. The raw materials for the batteries. Is this going to create another huge environmental disaster in some South American country (Not in my backyard!)?..

Lithium exploration in Nevada has drastically increased in the past couple years. Nevada is home to the only operating lithium mine in the United States which is located in Clayton Valley, Esmeralda County. The mine has been in operation since 1967, employs 85 people, and produces lithium carbonate from evaporation ponds which concentrate the lithium.

https://data-ndom.opendata.arcgis.com/pages/lithium-claims

 

[E.Man]

'Electric Vehicle Owner' thread.

I'm not seeing anything besides the same off topic bollocks as on Facebook comments.
Texas snow and allergies !??

 

[GChief]

It’s a conversation, hard to have those now a days...
You’ll be ok

 

[rhodus]

'Electric Vehicle Owner' thread.

I'm not seeing anything besides the same off topic bollocks as on Facebook comments.
Texas snow and allergies !??

OP: I do not want to get into the debate over the environment etc. but rather the practicality and cost of driving one.

The real cost of owning one of the things is all I'm interested in. This thread dances all around the question.

 

[hjames]

That's why I walked away, it's pretty much the same talking points from the same negative purveyors as always in these threads here ...
I think we need a thread where ONLY OWNERS of EVs are allowed to discuss the issues.
When I buy one (in a year or 2, max) it will not be because of the folks who always talk up the high battery costs and all of that rot and don't own one.
There are a few nuggets in the thread - but here we are 8 pages in with maybe 3 pages of on-topic posts,
and a lot of discussion of peanut allergies and other divergent topics.
Interesting as that may be, it should have its own discussion in another thread ...

 

[rhodus]

That's why I walked away, it's pretty much the same talking points from the same negative purveyors as always in these threads here ...
I think we need a thread where ONLY OWNERS of EVs are allowed to discuss the issues.
When I buy one (in a year or 2, max) it will not be because of the folks who always talk up the high battery costs and all of that rot and don't own one.
There are a few nuggets in the thread - but here we are 8 pages in with maybe 3 pages of on-topic posts,
and a lot of discussion of peanut allergies and other divergent topics.
Interesting as that may be, it should have its own discussion in another thread ...

But I still don't think you can have an honest discussion about the viability of EVs without considering the relevant environmental issues. After all, the main justification for the push to EVs is to "save the planet".

 

[hjames]

But I still don't think you can have an honest discussion about the viability of EVs without considering the relevant environmental issues. After all, the main justification for the push to EVs is to "save the planet".

Oh, do you really think the majority of people are going to go out and buy an EV?? I don't.
It's going to be a limited market until they get a LOT cheaper and gas gets a LOT more expensive.

That said, I will, without a doubt, buy an HEV in the next year or two. Still undecided if it will be a PHEV, or just a Hybrid EV.
The power grid was built to convey electricity from one place to another - it won't care if it's Amps for your washer dryer or charging your car.
Sure, when enough cars hit the grid at night it will make a difference - but I don't see that happening in the next year or 2.
Meanwhile, I see more and more solar panels popping up here in Fairfax, some have EVs in the driveway, most do not. As the power generation gets more localized, the need for long-haul grids will ease.

 

[Djcoolray]

I'll try to tread lightly... I have looked for white papers on the merits of EV, Hybrid, vs. Gas vehicles. Many of them are sponsored by green industry and tend to distort or underplay key metrics which makes direct comparison in terms of running cost and environmental degradation difficult if not impossible. For example, gas cars always carry mine to tale pipe carbon cost while the cars with Lithium batteries are not assess this cost. The white papers offer bromides such as when recycling becomes universal, the lithium life cycle will be closed. Environment damage from mining Lithium, Cobalt, and Nickel are never assessed or mentioned. Also conspicuously missing from the analysis is the carbon emissions from electricity generation which is assumed to be already transitioned to wind or hydro. Why the obfuscation?

Exactly.....

EV to ICE

Which method of producing an automobile for consumer purchase is actually greener to produce? Obtaining the materials to make electrical engines and lithium batteries cause catastrophic environmental damage in comparison to lead batteries.

Source of green power for EV to ICE?? If there were solar panels on 80% of the buildings and electrical storage banks with one grid in the country EV’s would be the greener choice. But fossil fuel is still being burned to create electricity still to this day. So in truth, we need a National Grid that is totally totally green before launching EV’s as the primary mode of transportation. So.....once again the cart is in front of the horse. If a person has a large home with solar panels covering every square inch with an electrical storage bank full of batteries to maintain the home and EV......that to this date is the only true green situation which needs to be developed to a national scale. So, it’s just another situation where we don’t have the proper amount of infrastructure to support the venture. The situation should not just be about a useable product on an individual level as part of a profit driven society. With the increase in population, there is a continuing increased demand for electricity without including EV’s. At the National level, we don’t have the infrastructure to expand and improve methods that could create a green solution.

 

[NH-MAN]

I think we need a refresh of the original question.

Seems to me 95% of posts have nothing to do with it.

"I do not want to get into the debate over the environment etc. but rather the practicality and cost of driving one.
Just for sake of comparison, assume gas is $2.50/gal and you get 30mpg on your gas powered vehicle. That is 8.3 cents per mile. Add in an oil change every 5000 or so and that adds about another penny per mile. Let's call it 9 cents per mile to drive.

How do they compare cost wise to drive, availability and convenience of charging stations, time to charge at home or on the road, power and acceleration, etc? Are you happy? Would you want as an only vehicle? Would you buy again?"