Electric vehicle owners, let's talk.

[whoaru99]

We just looked at cost.

Yeah, the grid doesn't really care how much the power costs. It cares about how much power it has to deliver.

Just a quick glance at some number....

Read there were something like 3.22 trillion miles driven per year in the USA.

Let's say for discussion 1/2 changed over to electric vehicles right now.

That'd be 1610000000000 miles driven by electric vehicle.

Another thing I read was that the EVs are using around 30kWh per 100 miles, the actual to recharge might be more with losses. I didn't notice if that was simply to power the vehicle or if that was charged power. If it's just power consumed to move the vehicle, the grid load will be even higher.

So, 16100000000 * 30kWh = 483,000,000,000 kWh more the grid would have to supply. Presuming I did the math right. That's a lot, I think.

Fact and math check, anyone?

 

[rhodus]

Yeah, the grid doesn't really care how much the power costs. It cares about how much power it has to deliver.

Just a quick glance at some number....

Read there were something like 3.22 trillion miles driven per year in the USA.

Let's say for discussion 1/2 changed over to electric vehicles right now.

That'd be 1610000000000 miles driven by electric vehicle.

Another thing I read was that the EVs are using around 30kWh per 100 miles.

So, 16100000000 * 30kWh = 483,000,000,000 kWh more the grid would have to supply. Presuming I did the math right. That's a lot, I think.

483 Billion MORE kwh ? No problem, just get some solar panels!

 

[YY1]

The car was still fairly new then so they tended to drive it everywhere.

Couldn't say exactly how many miles that $30 per month addition to their normal electric bill actually got them, though.

I did say "semi"- scientific.


...but again, if we're only talking about an increase in demand of about 15% (assuming they had an average bill of $200) I still say that's low impact to the grid.

On a somewhat related note we cut our bill literally in half with a higher (but not ultra) SEER A/C unit and replacing 95% of our incandescent bulbs with 50/50 CFL and LED.

Went from just over $200 to about $100. For a 2000 sq/ft house occupied by 2.

 

[rhodus]

Yeah, the grid doesn't really care how much the power costs. It cares about how much power it has to deliver.

Just a quick glance at some number....

Read there were something like 3.22 trillion miles driven per year in the USA.

Let's say for discussion 1/2 changed over to electric vehicles right now.

That'd be 1610000000000 miles driven by electric vehicle.

Another thing I read was that the EVs are using around 30kWh per 100 miles, the actual to recharge might be more with losses. I didn't notice if that was simply to power the vehicle or if that was charged power. If it's just power consumed to move the vehicle, the grid load will be even higher.

So, 16100000000 * 30kWh = 483,000,000,000 kWh more the grid would have to supply. Presuming I did the math right. That's a lot, I think.

Fact and math check, anyone?

I know that. I'm an Electrical Contractor. I'm just trying to get a handle on the real cost today of an EV as compared to say a Honda Civic...

 

[elcoholic]

Thanks. I'm just trying to get an idea of the average EV power cost. Still too new to get a good handle on it

It depends on where you live. For you a full charge on a Tesla’s 100 kWh battery would be 100 x 1.18 x $.0994 = $11.69. The 1.18 accounts for 85% charging efficiency. For me it would be $22.16.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a

 

[elcoholic]

I know that. I'm an Electrical Contractor. I'm just trying to get a handle on the real cost today of an EV as compared to say a Honda Civic...

Read the C&D article I linked above.

 

[hjames]

Exactly....

The threat of extinction comes from overpopulation....not the technology being used. It’s about how many people are using the same technology. Doesn’t matter which technology is being used because all have toxic disadvantages based on accumulation over time. Then from the people themselves are a source of pollution to both the water and the air.

Of course - but while population growth has already lowered in many of the developed countries,
how do we gently convince 3rd world nations and under-developed countries to limit THEIR growth,
when monsoons and famine alone do not convince them to do so on their own?
How do we convince intelligent people that the biblical adage to "go forth and multiply"
means they should stop having larger families with excess above 2 kids?
Do you feel you have the right to convince them?

In all honesty - that conversation belongs in a thread all its own
about human pop-growth and resources, not an electric car thread.

 

[GChief]

Must be some damn good pizza and friendly cops over there!

For a ubiquitous reference, consider the closest Wal Mart is 35 miles, LOL.

I guess some people can’t grasp that concept. I have to drive 36 miles one way for a good pizza. There are closer ones but the closet one of those is a 17 mile drive. I can get beer and basic crap groceries with a 10 mile drive. Wal-Mart... 22 miles.

 

[rhodus]

483 Billion MORE kwh ? No problem, just get some solar panels!

That would take about 882 million MORE solar panels if the average panel delivered 300 watts, which is way over the actual number...and each panel is about 15 sq ft

 

[rhodus]

Of course - but while population growth has already lowered in many of the developed countries,
how do we gently convince 3rd world nations and under-developed countries to limit THEIR growth,
when monsoons and famine alone do not convince them to do so on their own?
How do we convince intelligent people that the biblical adage to "go forth and multiply"
means they should stop having larger families with excess above 2 kids?
Do you feel you have the right to convince them?

Mao did...just sayin...

 

[quaddriver]

I have been thinking about this... and yes it hurt.
I am thinking they are not going to make this up with registration or other ways, it’s going to be higher gas taxes. EV’s are coming and we are not going to be able to do anything about it, is what it is. Gas taxes are going to be the short term fix for revenue, it will serve two purposes, push people into EV’s faster, and keep the revenue stream. It’s $2.29 a gallon here now, I am talking double or triple that. Yes oil companies can drop prices but taxes will eat that up.

I will seriously look at EV’s next year when I am ready to buy.

... of course the 400lb elephant is: stating an intent to go to 'technology b' when you are currently on 'technology a', and the approval point for 'B' and its infrastructure is not in place. basically, to put it in enterprise terms: you are messing with production. In a nutshell, that exposes the people making these decisions: no education or experience. Sure, someday, somehow, 'B' will come about and the 'B' that does come about might not even be the 'B' currently being pushed. But the point it, it aint in place so you in no way shape or form, mess with the viability of 'A' in the meantime. to do such would destabilize or outright destroy our survivability.

To put into Feb21 terms: we pay, right now, for every texas resident to receive for free, a tesla (perhaps the best solution right now marketed) and take away the planet killing gas cars. today. fine.

Now plug the damn things in. Texas was running 42% wind power generation 3 weeks ago. Today it is 8% and the grid collapsed. People cannot even take a **** in their own homes and now we tell them to plug in the cars on a collapsed grid. Insanity. I state again: we should not even have this conversation or attempt this move - even on an individual basis until infrastructure is in place. The way grids work, individual market choices are not regulated. If enough people rush down this path - for any reason - you quickly approach a tipping point to where the only solution is a rolling brown out. anyone paid any attention to Cali for the last 40 years?

People tend to think 'its just me doing it, how much of a difference can it make?'. and then what if 1M people in a nation of 330M make the same choice? Mebbe the regulators need to install a 'capacity and planning' group just like every large company and every utility provider? just saying...

I pay attn to this cuz my state Pa is a large net energy exporter. If something dumb is undertaken to upset that and the PA grid no longer exports, the entire north east USA collapses. The russians surely know this, their published SIOP is a small airburst over pa of a nuke. kill few, destroy little, but turn out the lights to 1/4 of the US population. People lose facebook and netflix and they will surrender to chimpanzees within 3 days.

 

[rhodus]

Of course - but while population growth has already lowered in many of the developed countries,
how do we gently convince 3rd world nations and under-developed countries to limit THEIR growth,
when monsoons and famine alone do not convince them to do so on their own?
How do we convince intelligent people that the biblical adage to "go forth and multiply"
means they should stop having larger families with excess above 2 kids?
Do you feel you have the right to convince them?

In all honesty - that conversation belongs in a thread all its own
about human pop-growth and resources, not an electric car thread.

I think it is very hard to talk about the viability of EVs without the issue of resources.

 

[hjames]

I think it is very hard to talk about the viability of EVs without the issue of resources.

Perhaps - but - I've been driving small efficient cars since the 80s -
In another direction, it's not a binary either-or-thing, it's a matter of degrees.

 

[rhodus]

... of course the 400lb elephant is: stating an intent to go to 'technology b' when you are currently on 'technology a', and the approval point for 'B' and its infrastructure is not in place. basically, to put it in enterprise terms: you are messing with production. In a nutshell, that exposes the people making these decisions: no education or experience. Sure, someday, somehow, 'B' will come about and the 'B' that does come about might not even be the 'B' currently being pushed. But the point it, it aint in place so you in no way shape or form, mess with the viability of 'A' in the meantime. to do such would destabilize or outright destroy our survivability.

To put into Feb21 terms: we pay, right now, for every texas resident to receive for free, a tesla (perhaps the best solution right now marketed) and take away the planet killing gas cars. today. fine.

Now plug the damn things in. Texas was running 42% wind power generation 3 weeks ago. Today it is 8% and the grid collapsed. People cannot even take a **** in their own homes and now we tell them to plug in the cars on a collapsed grid. Insanity. I state again: we should not even have this conversation or attempt this move - even on an individual basis until infrastructure is in place. The way grids work, individual market choices are not regulated. If enough people rush down this path - for any reason - you quickly approach a tipping point to where the only solution is a rolling brown out. anyone paid any attention to Cali for the last 40 years?

People tend to think 'its just me doing it, how much of a difference can it make?'. and then what if 1M people in a nation of 330M make the same choice? Mebbe the regulators need to install a 'capacity and planning' group just like every large company and every utility provider? just saying...

I pay attn to this cuz my state Pa is a large net energy exporter. If something dumb is undertaken to upset that and the PA grid no longer exports, the entire north east USA collapses. The russians surely know this, their published SIOP is a small airburst over pa of a nuke. kill few, destroy little, but turn out the lights to 1/4 of the US population. People lose facebook and netflix and they will surrender to chimpanzees within 3 days.

YEAH!!! What HE said!!

 

[GChief]

... of course the 400lb elephant is: stating an intent to go to 'technology b' when you are currently on 'technology a', and the approval point for 'B' and its infrastructure is not in place. basically, to put it in enterprise terms: you are messing with production. In a nutshell, that exposes the people making these decisions: no education or experience. Sure, someday, somehow, 'B' will come about and the 'B' that does come about might not even be the 'B' currently being pushed. But the point it, it aint in place so you in no way shape or form, mess with the viability of 'A' in the meantime. to do such would destabilize or outright destroy our survivability.

To put into Feb21 terms: we pay, right now, for every texas resident to receive for free, a tesla (perhaps the best solution right now marketed) and take away the planet killing gas cars. today. fine.

Now plug the damn things in. Texas was running 42% wind power generation 3 weeks ago. Today it is 8% and the grid collapsed. People cannot even take a **** in their own homes and now we tell them to plug in the cars on a collapsed grid. Insanity. I state again: we should not even have this conversation or attempt this move - even on an individual basis until infrastructure is in place. The way grids work, individual market choices are not regulated. If enough people rush down this path - for any reason - you quickly approach a tipping point to where the only solution is a rolling brown out. anyone paid any attention to Cali for the last 40 years?

People tend to think 'its just me doing it, how much of a difference can it make?'. and then what if 1M people in a nation of 330M make the same choice? Mebbe the regulators need to install a 'capacity and planning' group just like every large company and every utility provider? just saying...

I pay attn to this cuz my state Pa is a large net energy exporter. If something dumb is undertaken to upset that and the PA grid no longer exports, the entire north east USA collapses. The russians surely know this, their published SIOP is a small airburst over pa of a nuke. kill few, destroy little, but turn out the lights to 1/4 of the US population. People lose facebook and netflix and they will surrender to chimpanzees within 3 days.

We have pretty great charging infrastructure locally already. I see it and my friends with EV’s confirm it. Looking into it I can do any long trip I may need to do with charging capabilities along the route. My comment was MO about revenue generation and how EV’s would work for me.

Edit: and the house we are buying will be “off grid” (actually feeding the grid on a normal day) by this time next year. As a everyday commuter it would be “my” power generation charging it.

 

[whoaru99]

I think it is very hard to talk about the viability of EVs without the issue of resources.

Indeed. People plug stuff into receptacle and it just works and (generally) keeps coming. It's not something a lot of people consider in the way they do like having to go fill the gas tank.

 

[rhodus]

We have pretty great charging infrastructure locally already. I see it and my friends with EV’s confirm it. Looking into it I can do any long trip I may need to do with charging capabilities along the route. My comment was MO about revenue generation and how EV’s would work for me.

Edit: and the house we are buying will be “off grid” (actually feeding the grid on a normal day) by this time next year. As a everyday commuter it would be “my” power generation charging it.

"Off Grid" means "Not Connected" to any utility power grid. This involves a substantial battery backup for power at night and in inclement weather. VERY expensive and power limited. The average solar panel produces less than 1.5 kwh/day. It will take one helluva off grid system to handle housing AND driving needs, especially if you're in the boondocks

 

[rajoo]

I have owned a Tesla Model 3 since they first came out and I bought it mainly for my commute. Get in the middle and the car drives by itself very effectively. We already had solar power generation at home, so it made sense. To date, I have only used Tesla charging stations a couple of times and even then just to get enough charge to get home. Without going through complex arithmetic, very much doubt if it is more economical to drive than my other car which gives a combined 25 mpg, unless we already have had solar power generation. Near zero maintenance is an added benefit with Model 3, on my second set of tires and wipers.

I have also owned a Honda hybrid which unfortunately got totaled and Volt would have been a good option but they were just discounted. Going forward, it would make more sense for home owners to generate power via solar rather than buy EV's to reduce carbon foot print and as has been mentioned before here, our power grid will not support a large number of people coming home from work plugging their cars into the charging outlet.

 

[GChief]

"Off Grid" means "Not Connected" to any utility power grid. This involves a substantial battery backup for power at night and in inclement weather. VERY expensive and power limited. The average solar panel produces less than 1.5 kwh/day. It will take one helluva off grid system to handle housing AND driving needs, especially if you're in the boondocks

I do power for a living and understand all that. I will be building everything myself (big cost reduction) and probably using Tesla battery packs. I understand what needs to be considered and figured out. It will be wind and solar... numbers have been crunched and parts (mostly thru work) have been identified.

We are good.

That’s why I “ “ my off grid... it could be but won’t be.

 

[quaddriver]

We have pretty great charging infrastructure locally already. I see it and my friends with EV’s confirm it. Looking into it I can do any long trip I may need to do with charging capabilities along the route. My comment was MO about revenue generation and how EV’s would work for me.

Edit: and the house we are buying will be “off grid” (actually feeding the grid on a normal day) by this time next year. As a everyday commuter it would be “my” power generation charging it.

ok let me put it this way....

you live in hooterville, you buy a model 3, you dont drive very far by rote, and there are 4 model 3 capable charging stations around, plus you bought the super advanced 240v charger for home. You clearly have infrastructure in place. But I erred in only using that word. understandable because for the last 20 years the news hotspot has been americas failing power grid infrastructure and how if the russians only detonated a small nuke high up over central pa they could wipe out 1/4 of the US capacity.....

You are happy and sipping a beer.

But lets suppose I had a calculator. lets suppose I found that for your average daily car use, it only requires a medium amazon prime box full of 'n' KJ's of energy - and said energy could be contained in a medium amazon prime box.

Today, you went to one of many filling stations and got this energy from a 'gas pump' - (n) - evil planet killing device that causes wars and diabetes

doing such, places at most, a micro fractional load on this infrastructure...a few watts to have a light, a watt to process the debit card payment, and a dozen watts to pump it.

tomorrow however, you plugged in, to get the same KJ of energy - memba how I said energy is energy? only this time the entire payload came across your infrastructure, and will in the future, and did not previously, how did it affect capacity?

not much you say, it took it like a man. but what if EVERYONE on your block did the same. THAT is the problem.

many of us live in established neighborhoods. many of us live in these neighborhoods near undeveloped areas. then one day they decide to develope that land and what is the FIRST thing they do? (yeah yeah after they pay bribes and force old people off their land....)

They run a new trunk line, gas line, and bury a completely new power grid as tapping into the old one would not work - not enough capacity.

Seen it, lived it, been there, done that, wrote the book, ate the donut.

now expand this to <insert state of choice>. then expand this to the USA?

Take my thesis dealing with the DAILY only consumption in the USA of gasoline ONLY. convert to amazon boxes of KJ.s get it into MW or GW form. compare to current US capacity. we there yet?

It is true that YOUR unregulated market choice is not a problem. But your town/county/state's unregulated market choice *IS*.

Im not saying dont go from 'A' to 'B'. I am saying, plan and build for 'B prime' FIRST. we do not only have 9 years left as commonly spouted and accepted.. we do have the 20 or so to undertake this work.