"Expectation bias and plecebo effect are much stronger than people care to admit."

[tromba]

I decided to read some of the comments and haven't watched the video yet. No time now. I just clicked the link so it would be open in my browser so I wouldn't have to hunt for it later.

THEN I noticed the author -- Ethan Winer

I've read a lot of his stuff -- he's a real expert on room treatments.

Well, that certainly gives bias to the video for me..... :yes:

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Excellent take on "Why we want THE BEST?" :thmbsp:

Now getting back on this thread main topic "What is BEST?"

This is the interesting one to tackle I think. Thoughts?

Arnold did it already.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

 

[Wigwam Jones]

I decided to read some of the comments and haven't watched the video yet. No time now. I just clicked the link so it would be open in my browser so I wouldn't have to hunt for it later.

THEN I noticed the author -- Ethan Winer

I've read a lot of his stuff -- he's a real expert on room treatments.

Well, that certainly gives bias to the video for me..... :yes:

I am not familiar with him or his writings, but I did find this:

http://www.sonicscoop.com/2012/06/14/infamous-myth-buster-ethan-winer-rewrites-the-audio-rulebook/

 

[Frank Sol]

One man's heretic is another man's messiah ...

 

[sebrof]

I would reword the title of this thread to "Expectation bias and plecebo effect are much stronger than many people care to admit."
Because some people believe in it too much and don't trust what they hear.

I've seen it with myself both ways. Sometimes I think I hear a difference and then when I have someone make a change without me knowing I realize I can't hear a difference or the difference is smaller than I thought.
I've also thought I couldn't hear a difference and had someone make a change, and lo an behold I heard a significant difference.

But usually, after a while (a couple of days or more) and then switching back to the original setup it's more obvious.

 

[62caddy]

"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which least is known."

-Michel de Montaigne

 

[Jeffery]

One man's heretic is another man's messiah ...

Yep, for every guy waxing poetic over how people who overspend on gear only hear an improvement because they overpaid, there's a guy lauding the virtues of getting the pinnacle of reproduction from a dumpster. And the world still turns.

 

[chicks]

yep, for every guy waxing poetic over how people who overspend on gear only hear an improvement because they overpaid, there's a guy lauding the virtues of getting the pinnacle of reproduction from a dumpster. And the world still turns.

qft

 

[runnin']

Yep, for every guy waxing poetic over how people who overspend on gear only hear an improvement because they overpaid, there's a guy lauding the virtues of getting the pinnacle of reproduction from a dumpster. And the world still turns.

Very true, and I think if we put the best receiver from 35 years ago into the same system with the several thousand dollar units, a difference in sound would be evident. And here's the important part, some would prefer the receiver, and some would prefer the expensive gear. There is no meter to measure a poster's preferences when he is waxing romantic about a certain piece of gear, or how his tastes compare with generally accepted audio ideals.

On the topic of the video, how in the world does one find a video with only 136 views? The video and the thread starter no doubt share the same opinion on audio, and that is fine. I don't see a point in trying to make converts however. Buy what you prefer. Listen to it and be happy. Don't worry about strangers on a forum who disagree with you. Life is too short.

 

[rcspkramp]

Winer should change his name to Whiner. Huge chip on his shoulder because he's been unable to make money from the Hi-Fi business. His jealousy outweighs rationality.

 

[blackfly]

I think honestly that audio is like anything. If you do your homework (many do not) you will find the good stuff, regardless of price. However, sadly, old addages are true; you get what you pay for and quality is not cheap. Audio is unique, however, in that it is a PURELY perceptive event, and reality is in the ears of the beholder (listener). Since there can never be consensus, it is easy to copp-out and not do the work or take the time to actually do the tests or listen to the gear (which itself is not easy in most cities). People do not want to be reminded of the fact that like class struggle there are haves and have-nots in audio, and we all buy what we can afford, some perhaps more than they should. Deep down, I think most hate being reminded that they are part of the lower end of the economic spectrum (in audio-relativity) and hate being reminded they don't have the best sound out there, only the best sound they can obtain. Humans hate being reminded of flaws and weaknesses.

Back to audio gear, I purposely don't distinguish between older and new gear since I have both to excellent results myself, and again, doing the homework has allowed me to maximize the purchases I have made. But I still know that I have a way to go in this game and hope to move upward as permitted. I think we all do, and some are already there. But perhaps it is not the achieving but the striving that matters. Just in the last 5 years my system has transformed into something I could not of dreamed of years ago, so who knows.

Perhaps what we all need to do is be reminded that Einstein was right about relativism and we all need to be reminded where we have been to realise how lucky and fortunate we are. After all, quality music playback is such a low priority now that I feel we are the only ones left that really "get it", and if we give up and don't keep it alive, who will regardless of means or not.

 

[Pandovski]

Winer should change his name to Whiner. Huge chip on his shoulder because he's been unable to make money from the Hi-Fi business. His jealousy outweighs rationality.

I think he makes acoustic treatments for rooms and studios. Not very lucrative branch of HiFi?

 

[rcspkramp]

I think he makes acoustic treatments for rooms and studios. Not very lucrative branch of HiFi?

Not as lucrative as companies like Pass, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Ayre, etc. He loves to bash high end because he's not talented enough compete with such companies.

 

[89grand]

Well, there is always the possibility that he truly believes in what he says.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Not as lucrative as companies like Pass, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Ayre, etc. He loves to bash high end because he's not talented enough compete with such companies.

He's actually highly respected in his field and his company's products well received by consumers. I have no idea what kind of profit margin his business generates and how it compares to the margins generated by the companies you mentioned, but to say he's not talented is simply inaccurate. Not really sure I'd agree with the "chip on his shoulder" part, either. But it must be frustrating for a man with his knowledge and experience in the field of audio to see folks spend thousands on cable upgrades without giving a second of thought, or only a few, token seconds of thought, to acoustics. I say this with the understanding that acoustic treatments often result in profoundly positive results on fidelity. Cable swaps and many of the other esoteric tweaks tend to offer less obvious improvements....and of course there is a large camp that says no improvement at all. There is no large camp that argues acoustic treatments offer no improvement at all and a very small one that claims subtle improvements.

And I just have to ask, what are your sources for the profits generated by the companies in question? I'd be very curious, as a businessman, to see that information.

 

[rcspkramp]

He's actually highly respected in his field and his company's products well received by consumers. I have no idea what kind of profit margin his business generates and how it compares to the margins generated by the companies you mentioned, but to say he's not talented is simply inaccurate. Not really sure I'd agree with the "chip on his shoulder" part, either. But it must be frustrating for a man with his knowledge and experience in the field of audio to see folks spend thousands on cable upgrades without giving a second of thought, or only a few, token seconds of thought, to acoustics. I say this with the understanding that acoustic treatments often result in profoundly positive results on fidelity. Cable swaps and many of the other esoteric tweaks tend to offer less obvious improvements....and of course there is a large camp that says no improvement at all. There is no large camp that argues acoustic treatments offer no improvement at all and a very small one that claims subtle improvements.

And I just have to ask, what are your sources for the profits generated by the companies in question? I'd be very curious, as a businessman, to see that information.

My sources would be from people I know who work for these companies. Good enough for you?

 

[rcspkramp]

Well, there is always to possibility that he truly believes in what he says.

Nothing wrong with that, he believes what he believes.

 

[tomlinmgt]

My sources would be from people I know who work for these companies. Good enough for you?

Not really, I prefer numbers. Like I said, I'm a businessman and can't do anything with "just because I know" as such answers are generally considered a cop out. So you know people who work for Real Traps?

 

[rcspkramp]

Not really, I prefer numbers. Like I said, I'm a businessman and can't do anything with "just because I know" as such answers are generally considered a cop out. So you know people who work for Real Traps?

Sorry, I cannot divulge that information, anyway, a real businessman would be able to uncover that information for themselves. I see what you are doing here, you won't be successful.

 

[Pandovski]

Well...