Deep subject...
"Expectation bias and plecebo effect are much stronger than people care to admit."
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Deep subject...
jsisk
Not 2 Old 2 Rock & Roll
OK, so I watched the whole 58 minutes of the video.
Yes, I agree that the power of suggestion can make you notice things that you didn't notice before. That is not a valid argument for it automatically being a placebo. It simply demonstrates that the human mind is not capable of taking in millions of different inputs simultaneously and analyzing them all.
If you listen to a piece of music and never notice the sound of a bird in the background until someone points it out to you, does that mean the bird isn't really there or that you didn't notice it before. The same applies to a bird in a tree. Someone points to it, but you don't see it. Then they walk you over to the tree and point it out again. Now you see it. Does that mean it wasn't there before? Was the bird a placebo that you only saw because the other person made you believe there was a bird there when there really wasn't? No. There was a bird. Both in the music and in the tree. They only needed to be pointed out so you could focus on observing them.
Yes, I agree that the power of suggestion can make you notice things that you didn't notice before. That is not a valid argument for it automatically being a placebo. It simply demonstrates that the human mind is not capable of taking in millions of different inputs simultaneously and analyzing them all.
If you listen to a piece of music and never notice the sound of a bird in the background until someone points it out to you, does that mean the bird isn't really there or that you didn't notice it before. The same applies to a bird in a tree. Someone points to it, but you don't see it. Then they walk you over to the tree and point it out again. Now you see it. Does that mean it wasn't there before? Was the bird a placebo that you only saw because the other person made you believe there was a bird there when there really wasn't? No. There was a bird. Both in the music and in the tree. They only needed to be pointed out so you could focus on observing them.
What about when someone says "Look at that bird in that tree!" and you look over and see the bird, then when you get closer you see that it was a shadow that looked like a bird and there really isn't one? I believe that is closer to the point of the video (and thread).
tomlinmgt
Lunatic Member
Not really sure why you wouldn't be allowed to divulge the information if a "real businessman" has access to it. It's not like you get a super secret password when you become a "real businessman" that makes you privy to information a "fake businessman" or "non businessman" wouldn't be allowed to see.
You said you knew, I was just asking you to share. But I wouldn't want you to have to kill me first or go into hiding if you leaked, so I'll stop pressing.
Inattentional blindness
There is the gorilla perception experiment in psychology. People are asked to count the number of passes among 6 people with a basketball. As the 6 people speed up you become more focused counting and its the only thing that you preoccupy your mind with.
Suddenly a guy in a gorilla suite walks through the scene among the people passing the ball and no one of the examined subjects noticed the gorilla. Everyone kept counting ball passes and ignored anything else.
When the psychologists told them did you see the gorilla they said what gorilla, is this a joke. Then they saw the video and couldn't believe it.
Now this is scientifically proven with sight and hearing senses. There is nothing mystical or unknown about the selective way our mind works when it starts focusing on things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
www.theinvisiblegorilla.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness
There is the gorilla perception experiment in psychology. People are asked to count the number of passes among 6 people with a basketball. As the 6 people speed up you become more focused counting and its the only thing that you preoccupy your mind with.
Suddenly a guy in a gorilla suite walks through the scene among the people passing the ball and no one of the examined subjects noticed the gorilla. Everyone kept counting ball passes and ignored anything else.
When the psychologists told them did you see the gorilla they said what gorilla, is this a joke. Then they saw the video and couldn't believe it.
Now this is scientifically proven with sight and hearing senses. There is nothing mystical or unknown about the selective way our mind works when it starts focusing on things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
www.theinvisiblegorilla.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness
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This thread has no point.
The point is that the perfect Audiophile needs to have ADHD and businessman password to sail through Higher Fidelity.
jsisk
Not 2 Old 2 Rock & Roll
Yes, that is the point of the video. I was merely pointing out that just because something needs to be pointed out for you to notice it doesn't mean it isn't real. (also known as an opposing view)
Or in other words, I understand his point but do not agree that it applies 100% of the time.
I want my secret password!
Agreed- being an employee does not necessarily translate to awareness of company financials.
This the 3rd or 4th time I've seen Ethan Winer and his views dissected here and every time is castigated for having views contradictory by many who oppose them. It would be enjoyable for once - if - some could explain their disagreement from an viewpoint of science, experimentation, experience etc and dispense with the ad hominem attacks - for, if anything, that's the real cop out, in my view.
rcspkramp
Super Member
Honestly, I don't believe that sharing would go over well with the companies referenced. Really. For the record, I've been a business man in the high end for over forty years. When you've been in it this long, you tend to meet people, make friends, form alliances, etc. Not saying I've been a great or even good business man, but business man nonetheless.
:lmao:
Since you're the one that started it, I guess your point has been made.
Ya I've been around here long enough to know better.
Knowing and doing though...:nono:
I just stumbled on the video through the randomness of youtube and here we are. I thought some would find interest in the points made. And others probably wouldn't even watch it but have something to say anyway. Which is all good. And it has been interesting.
Where's my password?!
Yes, is it a Dodo bird I see it that tree?
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From the very start I found the comments from JJ impossible to believe. And even more so if the listeners have any experience with hi end audio.
His statement that he hooked up a wire to a cheap plastic amp of low cost to a switch and then had an old blown up Mcintosh that he just wired the heater elements so the tubes glowed and than had the switch rigged so it would look like it was a selector to switch between the two amps, and the majority of "Audiophiles picked the tube amp over the cheap plastic amp when they made a choice.
Now come on, now first off, we know its a test why else are we there? Second if its a test, your going to be looking for a trick question. But I for one cannot believe that the majority of people would not be able to hear the difference of a good quality amp over a piece of junk. I know I would fiip that switch a few times and say, something is up no matter which way I flip that switch it still sounds like junk. Maybe they had speakers that were of so low of quality that the amps differences would not be detectable, I don't know but something is up.
And to be honest, if he is being truthful then just sticking some fake bass traps or what ever he sells behind the speakers and since the mind will play a trick on you, why spend the money on his real products!
Using his rational I should make a bunch of cheap plastic products that look just like his, and sell them for half price and claim they are the same as his. And if he tries to use the aurgment that my product is inferior to his, I could just show him the video of where he states as long as the persons mind doesn't know the difference they are the same.
His statement that he hooked up a wire to a cheap plastic amp of low cost to a switch and then had an old blown up Mcintosh that he just wired the heater elements so the tubes glowed and than had the switch rigged so it would look like it was a selector to switch between the two amps, and the majority of "Audiophiles picked the tube amp over the cheap plastic amp when they made a choice.
Now come on, now first off, we know its a test why else are we there? Second if its a test, your going to be looking for a trick question. But I for one cannot believe that the majority of people would not be able to hear the difference of a good quality amp over a piece of junk. I know I would fiip that switch a few times and say, something is up no matter which way I flip that switch it still sounds like junk. Maybe they had speakers that were of so low of quality that the amps differences would not be detectable, I don't know but something is up.
And to be honest, if he is being truthful then just sticking some fake bass traps or what ever he sells behind the speakers and since the mind will play a trick on you, why spend the money on his real products!
Using his rational I should make a bunch of cheap plastic products that look just like his, and sell them for half price and claim they are the same as his. And if he tries to use the aurgment that my product is inferior to his, I could just show him the video of where he states as long as the persons mind doesn't know the difference they are the same.
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That is exactly the point of that part of the video. Everyone "knows". Most people think they are above expectation bias.
And he could refute your claims with hard data. If he has actual test data showing that his product is superior to yours then the expectation bias is in his favor.
nailer
audionerd
Good info in OP video and anyone who thinks their serious listening isn't impacted by their expectations, emotional state, etc. is just fooling themselves. I think Nelson Pass would agree with the video's premise. I own ten amps and most of them pretty much sound the same. I wish they didn't.
Now don't let anyone misunderstand me that expectations , emotional state, and preconceived prejudice, doesn't have quite a bit to do with believing something sounds better. But he put such extremes out here it is very hard to believe. It would be like taking a car and making the speedo meter show twice as fast as the car is really going, and saying all of the professional race drivers driving the cars thought the ones going 30 miles an hour were faster than the ones that were actually going 60.
I expect results he gathered were from something that was fairly close but from the results he talked about it seemed a bit extreme.
I guess I need to buy some very large ARC amp cases, put my small Fisher inside them and listen in bliss!
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