Something more like competition three point harnesses might be needed!
Yeah man!
http://www.schrothracing.com/products/Competition
Fathom F112's in my system
- Thread starter PHC1
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Yeah man!
http://www.schrothracing.com/products/Competition
That reminds me Jimmy, I still have to send you my bill for helping you pass that last stone...
Had a chance to play around with the Bryston 10B sub x/o. To say that I am impressed with the results would be a big understatement. I am ecstatic with the results! :thmbsp:
After spending a better part of the day tweaking the settings on both the 10B x/o and the F112s, I came up with what I think are the excellent settings in my room. Of course I will try to optimize it further once I get my hands on some additional gear such as frequency spectrum analyzer, a mike and software so I can map the response and visualize it better. There is only so much you can do with a sound meter. Actually the final tweaking was done strictly by ear. It helps that you can mute the high pass and work on the subs alone and the fact that I can work on one side at a time (sub/speaker integration) with shutting one of the 501s down.
There are many benefits to this kind of a setup and I will just borrow them from various articles (otherwise I will get carpal tunnel trying to type all this stuff. see below). In summary, the 501s now have a much easier time with music with large dynamic swings and very low frequency reproduction as they only deal with 70Hz on up and let the 1300w amps of the F112s deal with the real low bass. This of course has a two-fold improvement and advantage. My speakers no longer need to strain to reproduce those frequencies, as smooth and good as they are to 30-35Hz, they are no match for the 13" long excursion drivers of the F112s that reach to 20Hz and below. And the other is mentioned above, the 501s meters no longer "swing" like they used to, the amp has a much easier time to drive the speakers and the midrange is now in a whole different league all together. The amps no longer have to recover from deep bass, the midrange is clearer due to both factors and even the highs are improved. The whole sound took on a more "relaxed" presentation with clearer vocals and sharper, more defined instruments across the whole frequency spectrum. Imaging/focus is now better than ever. 
The deep, tight, crisp bass that is in line with the rest of the frequency spectrum is like nothing I have ever had in my system before with any of the speakers. :thmbsp: I am very impressed and my speakers seem to be happier than ever. :yes: The 275MKIV will be driving the system next, I feel it will benefit even greater from this setup but we will see.
Some further info. The benefits to my system are very much inline with what this author had to say:
From 6moons 10B sub review:
Bass performance aside, the biggest surprise with the 10B-Sub was that it introduced no audible downsides at all. Most audiophiles will be wary of introducing yet another component into the signal chain and I was no different. Yet I heard absolutely no deterioration whatsoever by adding the 10B-Sub. Bryston explains how they eschew ICs or digital filters and that the 10B uses all analog class A discrete circuits and is in effect a very high quality class A preamplifier. Nevertheless, the thought of introducing a second 'preamplifier' to a system will likely keep many an audiophile up at night. Well, sometimes there's theory and then there's practice. Again, I heard no downside. Upsides? They were grand and they were numerable.
"In several ways, an active crossover makes life very much easier on your entire system. First, when you remove the bass signals from the main amplifier, you really brighten its day. The reproduction of bass consumes a lot of power. Once those bass frequencies are removed, the demands on the amplifier diminish greatly. Usually one can get by with half the amplifier power, often less. Second, many speakers, though capable of deep bass, do so only grudgingly. Their manufacturer may specify an F3 of 30Hz but that doesn't mean the speaker is happy doing it. It doesn't mean that it truly articulates at that frequency - and you'll never see a specification indicating just how much distortion it's adding there. Crossing over at some point above 30Hz to a subwoofer whose raison d'être is the reproduction of clean articulated deep bass can be a great move. If you're using two or 2.5-way speakers whose main drivers must do both vocals and bass, relieving them of the high excursions required for bass frequencies improves midrange clarity."
"Then there's the well-known compromise while situating a pair of speakers in your room and having to choose between bass response and imaging. Subtract the bass, send it to a subwoofer located where it works best and you are free to place the speakers where they shine. Even if you're using large three-way speakers, you can still benefit in this way. Then there's the ability to tweak the bass response of the system by punching up the bass at the sub if you desire; or manipulating your way around a nasty room mode. In short, there are all sorts of ways the addition of an active crossover and a good sub or two can benefit your entire system."
"Last but not least, adding a good crossover and subwoofer, particularly to a two-way system may make for greater dynamics. Hopefully you'll get a good microdynamic bounce as the midrange driver takes a step forward by way of articulation. In terms of macro dynamics, once relieved of those big bass excursions, you may find that your speakers
now play louder and with a lesser sense of strain and distortion."
Here is the whole article: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bryston2/crossover.html
Another review of the 10B http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/594bryston/index.html
Another: http://www.stereophile.com/miscellaneous/594bryston/index5.html
After spending a better part of the day tweaking the settings on both the 10B x/o and the F112s, I came up with what I think are the excellent settings in my room. Of course I will try to optimize it further once I get my hands on some additional gear such as frequency spectrum analyzer, a mike and software so I can map the response and visualize it better. There is only so much you can do with a sound meter. Actually the final tweaking was done strictly by ear. It helps that you can mute the high pass and work on the subs alone and the fact that I can work on one side at a time (sub/speaker integration) with shutting one of the 501s down.
There are many benefits to this kind of a setup and I will just borrow them from various articles (otherwise I will get carpal tunnel trying to type all this stuff.
see below). In summary, the 501s now have a much easier time with music with large dynamic swings and very low frequency reproduction as they only deal with 70Hz on up and let the 1300w amps of the F112s deal with the real low bass. This of course has a two-fold improvement and advantage. My speakers no longer need to strain to reproduce those frequencies, as smooth and good as they are to 30-35Hz, they are no match for the 13" long excursion drivers of the F112s that reach to 20Hz and below. And the other is mentioned above, the 501s meters no longer "swing" like they used to, the amp has a much easier time to drive the speakers and the midrange is now in a whole different league all together. The amps no longer have to recover from deep bass, the midrange is clearer due to both factors and even the highs are improved. The whole sound took on a more "relaxed" presentation with clearer vocals and sharper, more defined instruments across the whole frequency spectrum. Imaging/focus is now better than ever. The deep, tight, crisp bass that is in line with the rest of the frequency spectrum is like nothing I have ever had in my system before with any of the speakers. :thmbsp: I am very impressed and my speakers seem to be happier than ever. :yes: The 275MKIV will be driving the system next, I feel it will benefit even greater from this setup but we will see. Some further info. The benefits to my system are very much inline with what this author had to say:
From 6moons 10B sub review:
Bass performance aside, the biggest surprise with the 10B-Sub was that it introduced no audible downsides at all. Most audiophiles will be wary of introducing yet another component into the signal chain and I was no different. Yet I heard absolutely no deterioration whatsoever by adding the 10B-Sub. Bryston explains how they eschew ICs or digital filters and that the 10B uses all analog class A discrete circuits and is in effect a very high quality class A preamplifier. Nevertheless, the thought of introducing a second 'preamplifier' to a system will likely keep many an audiophile up at night. Well, sometimes there's theory and then there's practice. Again, I heard no downside. Upsides? They were grand and they were numerable.
"In several ways, an active crossover makes life very much easier on your entire system. First, when you remove the bass signals from the main amplifier, you really brighten its day. The reproduction of bass consumes a lot of power. Once those bass frequencies are removed, the demands on the amplifier diminish greatly. Usually one can get by with half the amplifier power, often less. Second, many speakers, though capable of deep bass, do so only grudgingly. Their manufacturer may specify an F3 of 30Hz but that doesn't mean the speaker is happy doing it. It doesn't mean that it truly articulates at that frequency - and you'll never see a specification indicating just how much distortion it's adding there. Crossing over at some point above 30Hz to a subwoofer whose raison d'être is the reproduction of clean articulated deep bass can be a great move. If you're using two or 2.5-way speakers whose main drivers must do both vocals and bass, relieving them of the high excursions required for bass frequencies improves midrange clarity."
"Then there's the well-known compromise while situating a pair of speakers in your room and having to choose between bass response and imaging. Subtract the bass, send it to a subwoofer located where it works best and you are free to place the speakers where they shine. Even if you're using large three-way speakers, you can still benefit in this way. Then there's the ability to tweak the bass response of the system by punching up the bass at the sub if you desire; or manipulating your way around a nasty room mode. In short, there are all sorts of ways the addition of an active crossover and a good sub or two can benefit your entire system."
"Last but not least, adding a good crossover and subwoofer, particularly to a two-way system may make for greater dynamics. Hopefully you'll get a good microdynamic bounce as the midrange driver takes a step forward by way of articulation. In terms of macro dynamics, once relieved of those big bass excursions, you may find that your speakers
now play louder and with a lesser sense of strain and distortion."
Here is the whole article: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bryston2/crossover.html
Another review of the 10B http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/594bryston/index.html
Another: http://www.stereophile.com/miscellaneous/594bryston/index5.html
jvining
Active Member
That reminds me Jimmy, I still have to send you my bill for helping you pass that last stone...
Do you take United Healthcare??
Great write-up Serge. There is some real science and reason behind it. THe 501s might get some relief, but I believe that the small SF's "midwoofer" is the one that's happiest with the new arrangement.
I am more and more convinced that, for many rooms/systems, a monitor + subs is the best solutions. Aside from having the optimal cabinet design for each, in many cases the best speaker position for imaging (upper octaves) is not the best speaker position for the room bass modes (lower octaves).
It's fun to experiment, innit? Especially when you hear a real improvement.
Congratulations for your efforts and kudos for sharing them with us.
Alberto
I am more and more convinced that, for many rooms/systems, a monitor + subs is the best solutions. Aside from having the optimal cabinet design for each, in many cases the best speaker position for imaging (upper octaves) is not the best speaker position for the room bass modes (lower octaves).
It's fun to experiment, innit? Especially when you hear a real improvement.
Congratulations for your efforts and kudos for sharing them with us.
Alberto
Thanks Alberto, these were uncharted waters for me but they led me to discover very new and exciting "audio nirvana places".
The rumors about these places were very true. And the earth is not flat after all. :thmbsp: If F112s and the 10B sub are the Niáa, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria then I guess that makes me Christopher Columbus of my listening room? :scratch2:
Shane
Active Member
Hi Serge
Good to see you new full range system is working well.
Considering the short time you have had your Guarneri's, do you think you have fully broken in the mid/bass driver prior to adding on the sub's? I know that Sonus bass drivers take a Long time to fully develop.
Have you lost any of the Sonus magic by not using the Guarneri's from 70 hz and below??
Good to see you new full range system is working well.
Considering the short time you have had your Guarneri's, do you think you have fully broken in the mid/bass driver prior to adding on the sub's? I know that Sonus bass drivers take a Long time to fully develop.
Have you lost any of the Sonus magic by not using the Guarneri's from 70 hz and below??
Shane I have over a few hundred hours of play time which may or may not be full break in for the Memento's. The Memento's are very impressive in the sense of how smooth and extended the bass is for a 6" mid-bass driver but they sign do off at around 30Hz in my room. I don't think any further break in will ever change that fact.
What the subs bring to the table is so much more than just the bottom octave, the "soundstage" takes on a whole different meaning. :yes: With the addition of the active X/O the results are even better yet. The midrange is smoother and more coherent, when you think about how much less demand there is on a driver that has to reproduce say a kick drum and other frequencies that fall within its range at the same time, it all makes sense. The sense of scale and impact of the very low frequency is 1000% better now while the midrange is clearer than ever.
Having said that, 70Hz seems to be the highest crossover point that still preserves the magic of the Memento's, any higher just didn't sound quite as smooth or natural to my ears. At 90Hz the bass lost some of its definition. The bottom octave is now effortless, smooth and natural, this is what the F112s excel at, the rest the Memento's work their magic on.
Comparing the 70Hz and below between the Memento and F112, the F112s are very musical subs and I don't hear any drawbacks yet. I've heard very good setups with REL subs but I don't remember any of them being crossed over that high. 25-40Hz was the norm. The JL Audio subs seem to be very musical and of very high quality build, no wonder they have won so many awards and are considered the best subs out there by many.
Thanks Vic, I doubt there was anything better I could do to enhance my system in my room. No full range speakers would have sounded as good in my 14x17 room as the Memento/subs/active x/o combination. The Fathoms are superb subs. Having so much control over the bass is the recipe for success in many rooms. :yes:Serge,
I'm glad to hear everything is sounding so good.
It's great when a plan comes together. :yes:
Shane
Active Member
Shane I have over a few hundred hours of play time which may or may not be full break in for the Memento's. The Memento's are very impressive in the sense of how smooth and extended the bass is for a 6" mid-bass driver but they sign do off at around 30Hz in my room. I don't think any further break in will ever change that fact.
What the subs bring to the table is so much more than just the bottom octave, the "soundstage" takes on a whole different meaning. :yes: With the addition of the active X/O the results are even better yet. The midrange is smoother and more coherent, when you think about how much less demand there is on a driver that has to reproduce say a kick drum and other frequencies that fall within its range at the same time, it all makes sense. The sense of scale and impact of the very low frequency is 1000% better now while the midrange is clearer than ever.
Having said that, 70Hz seems to be the highest crossover point that still preserves the magic of the Memento's, any higher just didn't sound quite as smooth or natural to my ears. At 90Hz the bass lost some of its definition. The bottom octave is now effortless, smooth and natural, this is what the F112s excel at, the rest the Memento's work their magic on.
Comparing the 70Hz and below between the Memento and F112, the F112s are very musical subs and I don't hear any drawbacks yet. I've heard very good setups with REL subs but I don't remember any of them being crossed over that high. 25-40Hz was the norm. The JL Audio subs seem to be very musical and of very high quality build, no wonder they have won so many awards and are considered the best subs out there by many.
As you said, no REL sub would be crossed off as high as 70hz, due to the fact REL recommend you run your speakers full range and the REL augment the bass around the natural bass rolloff. With the active crossover you are removing the speakers ability to run full range.
How is the MC275 sounding with the active sub config. You will be able to sell your MC501's as they are no longer required for the bass :thmbsp: and use the tubes exclusively.
BTW, I had my s/h Stentor crossed over on 27 hz since I have had it. At the time it sounded better that way, now I have it crossed over at 23hz and it sounds better again. go figure, I keep getting told that the Strad bass drivers take 12 mnths of play to fully develop. I found it hard to believe 6 mnths ago, now I am not so sceptical :scratch2:
cheers
When I traded my SF Cremona A's, they were about 2 years old and they just kept getting better and better.
I have not tried the 275 with the active x/o setup yet. There is no doubt in my mind the 275 will be that much happier with the 70Hz on down removed from its "to do list". LewinskiH01
Member
Serge,
Been following your reviews with much attention. Congratulations on your excellent upgrades and thank you so much for sharing your findings with us. I've been toying with a similar idea around adding an external crossover to my MC275 + B&W 804s + REL Storm III combo, which leads me to this question: why did you choose the 10B? Everywhere I read I see good things about the 10B, but then its price is not so distant from a Tact 2.2XP, with all it's additional room correction capabilities, time domain correction capabilities, etc. Everywhere I read I also see only good things about the 2.2XP.
Needless to say I'm looking forward to your review about 10B + MC275, even though I kind of imagine where that will lead to, based on what it did for the 501s.
You have a fantastic system!
Cheers,
Horacio
Been following your reviews with much attention. Congratulations on your excellent upgrades and thank you so much for sharing your findings with us. I've been toying with a similar idea around adding an external crossover to my MC275 + B&W 804s + REL Storm III combo, which leads me to this question: why did you choose the 10B? Everywhere I read I see good things about the 10B, but then its price is not so distant from a Tact 2.2XP, with all it's additional room correction capabilities, time domain correction capabilities, etc. Everywhere I read I also see only good things about the 2.2XP.
Needless to say I'm looking forward to your review about 10B + MC275, even though I kind of imagine where that will lead to, based on what it did for the 501s.
You have a fantastic system!
Cheers,
Horacio
I've thought about taking that route but after talking to a friend who has one and can't stop tweaking it... (have you seen the manual of that thing???
) I decided to go with a simpler approach. I also felt that analog class A discrete circuits of the Bryston 10B would alter the signal much less than all that digital processing that goes on with the Tact and I really don't need room processing as the Memento's have a fairly smooth response in my room. Choosing the crossover points and the slopes on the 10B and then tweaking the subs once again for the phase and gain to get a flat response and voila! Perfection. Between the 10B and the F112s there are enough controls to dial them to perfection. :yes: The Tact would be a very helpful tool indeed for those who have full range speakers and need to gain some control over the bass or desire some room correction if their speakers are not behaving the way they should in the room. The "Parc" from Rives audio is also an excellent processor for bass problems in the room.
LewinskiH01
Member
Understood. Somewhere (maybe at Audiogon?) I've seen someone from Rives Audio argue that class A circuits would introduce less artifacts to the signal, but then in the same thread someone with a significant background in electronics engineering also argued how the processing done at the digital level would introduce less artifacts...oh well.
So, if class A circuits was your choice, why the 10B over the PARC? The latter has very good reviews as well, as you mentioned. I'm not trying to challenge you here; just trying to benefit further from the research you clearly have already done. Maybe I'm lazy? Nah, I like to think several heads think better than just mine.
So, if class A circuits was your choice, why the 10B over the PARC? The latter has very good reviews as well, as you mentioned. I'm not trying to challenge you here; just trying to benefit further from the research you clearly have already done. Maybe I'm lazy? Nah, I like to think several heads think better than just mine.
No problem. Same reason as I decided against the Tact. When I read about the flexibility of the F112s, I felt that I should be able to have enough control over them to fine tune them to blend smoothly and all I really wanted was a simple active x/o the split the signal. Memento's really don't need help in the form of parametric eq or attenuation of any particular peaks in my room. Like I mentioned above, the Parc or the sub-parc can be used effectively to achieve similar results and you can even use passive subs with the sub-parc. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible, my system is built around a "purist" approach since I don't even use a preamp. Well, maybe not so purist anymore with the subs and the x/o.
Also, I did hear a few people complain that all the processing does rob the system of "air" and "ambiance" somewhat but I don't have any direct experience or knowledge as I have not tried any of them in my system. I can however vouch for the 10B that it doesn't alter the sound any more than say a different pair of interconnects would. :yes:
I would call Sumiko and ask if they recommend the REL subs to be crossed over at higher frequencies if that is what you are trying to do with your setup. I've heard many RELs but they are typically crossed over rather low. :scratch2:
jrsystems
Super Member
Processing done in the digital domain is not the problem, it is the additional A/D and D/A conversions to get the signal into and out of the digital domain. This is where the problems come. Unless you never leave the digital domain such as in a complete Meridian system, but that's another story!
LewinskiH01
Member
JR,
What you say is true, sometimes. In my case I only use a CD source, and would go into the Tact at the digital level, so no A/D involved. Then, after the DSP I would go through the internal DAC and into the MC275 and sub. Eventually I might add an outboard DAC as an upgrade to the internal DAC. So just as much analog/digital conversion as anybody using a digital source and analog amp.
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