I don't disagree. My first ever amp was a KA-3500, 35 WPC as I recall, wish I'd never sold it, lovely little thing.
How much wattage do you use, on average?
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I don't disagree. My first ever amp was a KA-3500, 35 WPC as I recall, wish I'd never sold it, lovely little thing.
Upwards of 100 watts per channel, but high resolution please (been wanting a Mark Levinson for decades)...I like the improvement in dynamics that high power reserves provide in the speakers that I prefer ..
I like the sound of sealed box systems and big planars and I don't want my speaker choices to be to be limited by a lack of power ..
I like the sound of sealed box systems and big planars and I don't want my speaker choices to be to be limited by a lack of power ..
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Those things are infamous power swallowing devices ..
Probably the only time that I ever heard something that I thought sounded better with 300wpc than it did with 200wpc..
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J Gordon Holt commenting on their many measurements over the yrs.
"Every other transistorized amplifier we have encountered (and read test reports about) hits a minimum of distortion at between 1/3 and 1/2 rated power and then shows a distortion rise below that figure. The Stereo 120's low-level distortion curve is almost exactly like that of a top-grade tube amplifier. Our measurements showed IM distortion down to 0.1% at 1/3 power, and below the 0.06% residual of our IM meter at all levels below about 10 watts."
This was the reason he liked the amp, it acted like a tube amp so more linear at lower output. And why it works well with sensitive speakers and many think it sounds meh with more modern speakers that ask more of it.
One of the main points to consider about amplifier power ratings as it relates to sound pressure levels developed by speakers is dynamic range. No one purchases a MC601 or MC1.2Kw to push a continuous 600 watts or 1200 watts into speakers. What the additional power ratings allow an amplifier to deliver is unclipped and undistorted musical peaks. Nearly all well designed speakers thrive on "clean" power but will fail quickly with clipped output from amplifiers. Reserve output power is essential to accurately reproduce the complex wave forms of music.
Music is not a constant tone and volume is not a constant level unless you are amplifying test tones. Music is a continuous stream of peaks and valleys with an average level that is typically consistent. It is not unusual for momentary peaks in a musical performance to rise above the average level by 10 to 12 decibels. These same peaks are often fleeting but require substantial output power to reproduce without clipping the waveforms. We know that for every 3dB rise of input signal the output power will double. Using this information it is easy to understand why an amplifier with plenty of power becomes necessary. As an example lets say you are enjoying a performance at an average level of 25 watts output and a sudden crash of drums or blast of horns generates a 12dB peak above your average level. 3dB above 25 watts would require 50 watts, 6 dB above 25 watts would require 100 watts, 9dB above 25 watts would require 200 watts, and 12dB above 25 watts would require 400 watts of reserve power in order to faithfully reproduce the peak level of 12dB above your average listening level without clipping the output signal. Knowing this, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to have 400, 500, 600, or even 1200 watts on tap.
Granted this is a casual explanation and doesn't touch on speaker sensitivity, all of which will play into one's choice of amplifier power. None the less, I hope it helps you understand the relationship of input versus output power and why high powered amplifiers may be necessary, particularly as it applies to your speaker's sensitivity and your common listening levels.
Another point to take into consideration is almost all speaker manufacturers measure speaker sensitivity at a distance of 1 meter on axis (39.37 inches) directly in front of the speaker. These measurements are most often taken with the speaker placed inside an anechoic chamber where it is completely silent and there is no reflected sound for the microphone to hear. That's not exactly real world conditions that represent a typical end user. In addition, for each added meter of distance from the initial measurement point the audio level typically drops by 3 decibels. Looking at this another way, picture yourself listening to 96 decibels with one watt of amplifier power while sitting in front of a speaker at a distance of 1 meter. Moving your seat away from the speaker to 4 meters distance without increasing the amplifier output you will now be hearing an 87 decibel sound level. At this 4 meter distance you will need to increase the amplifier output to 8 watts to achieve the same volume level at your ears as was present when you were seated only 1 meter in front of the speaker. Move back 1 additional meter to 5 meters distance from the speaker and the amplifier power requirement will double to 16 watts for a 96 decibel sound pressure level at your ears. Even though a highly efficient speaker that produces 96dB with 1 watt at 1 meter is selected, mating it with an amplifier of 25 watts output can be a detriment or not depending on the distance you place your seat from the speakers and at what sound pressure level you commonly enjoy. Remember this, there needs to be sufficient power reserves (headroom) on tap to reproduce the dynamic differences above average level. If it takes 2 watts to sustain your desired average listening level at your selected seating location, you will still need something on the order of 30+ watts available to handle the dynamic range that is present in many recordings.
Changing the speaker efficiency to 86 decibels at 1 meter with 1 watt the perimeters differ dramatically. If you wish to listen at an average level of 95dB at a distance of 4 meters with this speaker, you will need 64 watts of output power not including reserve power for dynamics. To faithfully reproduce a 12 dB peak above 95dB average level with this speaker you will need 1024 watts, something a MC1.2KW amplifier can deliver in stride, as can a MC601 on momentary peaks. Both of these amplifier's power ratings are considered by many to be exorbitant but in fact they are necessary with this particular arrangement.
Both of these scenarios are examples of how speaker sensitivity, listening distance, and amplifier power ratings correlate into delivering satisfying listening experiences. It is clear that having additional amplifier power is an asset to reproducing undistorted, unclipped music, thereby protecting our speakers from the damage caused by inadequate power. One needs to consider speaker sensitivity, listening distance from the speakers, typical average music levels required and necessary headroom before deciding on amplifier output power.
Splatter Pak
High-End Scrounger
The meters on my Proton A-1150 top out (usually) at about a watt and a quarter for normal listening.
I feel like it's accurate to good extent that the pursuit of more power produces compromises in sound quality. I don't believe that there exist class AB amps that produce the subjective quality that class A amps produce. That's my basic argument against stupidly inefficient speakers. You're establishing right off the bat that the best possible amps aren't an option. If a speaker can't be driven by my F5's, it's not an option. I'm thoroughly spoiled. I don't think I'll ever use anything but class A monoblocks ever again.
AudioGMan
Well-Known Member
I stated “normal listening levels”. I never stated “preferred listening levels”. Would you agree that a speaker sensitivity rating of 90dB is a pretty average rating? I’m sure you wouldn’t consider listening to them at 90dB to be a normal listening level. Wouldn’t it take one watt for a speaker rated at 90dB/1W/1M to play at 90dB at a distance of 1 meter? So how many watts would it take for that same speaker to play at 80dB? I don’t know about you but I consider 70-80dB to be a normal listening level.
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whoaru99
Epic Member
Another twist in this is whether one is talking about average SPL or peak SPL because there will be roughly a 1/10 or 10x factor between them depending which way it's being presented.
If the average SPL is 80dB then peak level will be 90dB, give or take.
If the peak SPL is 80dB then the average level will be 70dB, give or take.
10dB is a reasonable all around factor to use. Highly compressed material i.e. that from the Loudness Wars, there will be less difference between peak.and average. Some material with high dynamic range may be 20dB difference.
whoaru99
Epic Member
For those estimating average power, it bears repeating that your average power generally can't be more than roughly 1/10 the rated power of your amp unless you like listening to clipping.
As well, if you are citing an average level that anywhere near approaches 1/10 of the amps rated power you're essentially running the system WFO.
As well, if you are citing an average level that anywhere near approaches 1/10 of the amps rated power you're essentially running the system WFO.
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For general listening it's hard for me to say "what wattage" because I have three different amp and speaker combos in my system. They all run at different wattage to produce the SPLs in the room, average SPLs would be in the 60-70 area. This is just having music playing and I can think straight doing other things. Depending on the music and I am a focused listener it could be 75-90 spls.
My prefererred listening level IS my normal listening level. My speakers are "stupidly inefficient" per Mr. Load (good handle for him), and my listening distance is a bit over 10 feet.
Wasn't the question "how much wattage do you use, on average"?
Pyrrho
Super Member
Two things. First, that would apply equally to low powered amplifiers as it would to high powered ones. Second, and more importantly, that is from 1966, as one can see here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaco-stereo-120-transistor-power-amplifier
One hopes that amplifier technology has progressed since then.
Also, as long as the distortion is always below the point of audibility, it does not matter if it is higher at one output level than another. It is only when the amount of distortion becomes audible that there is a problem for humans listening to it.
russel1972
Active Member
I have another question and this is from someone who is NOT tech savvy. I have 2 systems that I am not looking at changing regardless of this technical discussion. The first is a Marantz PM 7001and the other NAD C356BEE.
The Marantz lists 70 watts into 8 ohms and 100 watts into 4 ohms. The NAD lists >80 watts into 8 ohms or 4 ohms. The other spec that it shows is Peak Current >50 amps into 1 ohm for 1 ms.
Can anyone tell me more about this in non technical terms and why the different way of specing amplifiers. Thanks Al
The Marantz lists 70 watts into 8 ohms and 100 watts into 4 ohms. The NAD lists >80 watts into 8 ohms or 4 ohms. The other spec that it shows is Peak Current >50 amps into 1 ohm for 1 ms.
Can anyone tell me more about this in non technical terms and why the different way of specing amplifiers. Thanks Al
Well, the title of the thread is.....
How much wattage do you use, on average?
I've got 91dB sensitive speakers, and to get mid 80's dB at my chair, I need 1 to 3 watts.
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