JBL 100t vs. HPM 100

[Zilch]

Zilch you need to make a road trip to my place and bring some JBL's that sound better than my HPM-900's.

Sucks living in the middle of nowhere, I can't do any comparison listening

Consider DIY. I can virtually guarantee that the systems some AK members are building here themselves lately sound better than anything HPM.... :yes:

 

[Raphael]

Can someone please explain the term 'off axis' in relation to speaker performance (not listening position)? I assume the reference is to response curve changes at lower/higher decibles since it's not linear. Does the L100t's curve get rapidly erratic as compared to the HPM's at lower or higher spl? Does the limited flatline of the HPM hold to better the drop-off of the L100t's at other key spl levels (same question)?

I ask because I'm really in the minority and really like my HPM's. I have heard and dislike the seemingly veiled sound of the JBL's.

 

[dmusgrave]

Well Zilch send me a PM and enlighten me. You know I'm always willing to read and learn!

If I can get better sound without spending a mint, I'm interested :thmbsp:

 

[Tripqzon]

I ask because I'm really in the minority and really like my HPM's. I have heard and dislike the seemingly veiled sound of the JBL's.

Believe me, you are not in the minority because you like the sound of the HPM's.

The HPM-100 controversy has been around the block a zillion times on AK. It appears to be a love/hate deal with these speakers.

 

[Zilch]

Can someone please explain the term 'off axis' in relation to speaker performance (not listening position)?

It has nothing to do with SPL levels.

Envision this: Your speakers are against the wall facing straight out. You're sitting in the middle between them at some distance away from the wall. Draw an imaginary triangle with you and the speakers as the three verticies.

Straight out, perpendicular to the wall, is "On-axis" from each speaker. You're not listening from there, rather, at some angle off-axis, probably on the order of 15°.

Now, go back and look at the HPM-100 response curves which are published right on the back of the speaker. You can see that the high-frequency response is lower the further you get off-axis. At what angle does it approach being flat?

SO, if you toe-in the HPM-100s to aim them at your listening position, you get to hear their full measure (+8 - 10 dB) of "Tizz." Off axis, it is mitigated somewhat. The fact that you've got them against the wall is enhancing their "Boom" at the other end of the frequency spectrum via boundary effect. If you've placed them in corners, you enjoy even more of that, hence, maximum "Boom, tizz."

Also, you've got to be specific about what JBLs you are considering as seeming "Veiled." Many vintage JBLs have rolled-off highs, but any of L100T or -t3 vintage with titanium tweeters would have extended VHF.

Finally, in making such assessments, you must recognize that what you are hearing from HPM-100s is an inaccurate representation of the source, exaggerating a broad range of the response, as discussed earlier in this thread. That's characteristic of "West Coast" sound, which is fine and fun, but also fake.

If it's ultimately about the music, you must make your own determination of whether you prefer it delivered to you real, or, uhmm, artificially "enhanced" by the speakers you choose.

Note: Member RayW has acquired a pair of HPM-100s for study, presumably including test and measurement, in relation to this thread. They are currently undergoing refurb for the purpose.... :yes:

 

[Zilch]

Well Zilch send me a PM and enlighten me. You know I'm always willing to read and learn!

Read up here about Duffinator's Barzilays, Jackgiff's Santanas, and Mxlews's C36 Viscounts.

Then, we'll talk. :thmbsp:

I haven't completed my S99s yet, but that's coming.

[Budget in the realm of $1000 all new, though you can do it for somewhat less with used woofers and recycled cabs.... :yes: ]

 

[dmusgrave]

Guys I'm so confused, are the HPM-900's as "inaccurate" as the HPM-100's? Are the speakers I love so dearly not as good as I think they are? I get bummed when I read things like this... but I go listen to my modest little setup and it sounds so good to me.

 

[ProAc_Fan]

I can't believe a discussion comparing 2 rather average speakers can generate 106 posts.

Mike

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Guys I'm so confused, are the HPM-900's as "inaccurate" as the HPM-100's? Are the speakers I love so dearly not as good as I think they are? I get bummed when I read things like this... but I go listen to my modest little setup and it sounds so good to me.

Any speaker is as good as you think it is. Just don't leave the humble abode and drop into a modern hi end shop selling top of the line gear. Sorry to say but technology and the advent of the anechoic chamber and sophisticated engineering techniques and technologies make vintage speakers pale in comparison to more modern fare.

Mike

 

[dmusgrave]

Any speaker is as good as you think it is. Just don't leave the humble abode and drop into a modern hi end shop selling top of the line gear. Sorry to say but technology and the advent of the anechoic chamber and sophisticated engineering techniques and technologies make vintage speakers pale in comparison to more modern fare.

Mike

Eh, I don't have the money to buy anything I'd see in a high end shop selling top of the line gear... if there was such a shop here.

I do plan to try to find some audio places in New Orleans next month when I'm down there for a couple of days to see Wilco... I would like to "hear what I'm missing" so to speak.

I have far less in my total system than a low end "audiophile" interconnect sells for.

I've driven a 260,000.00 Ferrari, but my Camaro still makes me smile when I romp on the gas. I'm sure it'll be the same kind of experience with the high end audio compared to my low end setup.

 

[Zilch]

Guys I'm so confused, are the HPM-900's as "inaccurate" as the HPM-100's?

Nobody knows until they are actually measured, and we won't really know anything for certain about HPM-100s until Ray finishes his work.

But, again, recognize that none of this should necessarily render them any less enjoyable; we're just trying to get a handle on what they actually are.

[Don't get all bummed about any of it.... :thmbsp: ]

 

[dnewma04]

I can't believe a discussion comparing 2 rather average speakers can generate 106 posts.

Mike

Average in terms of performance compared to others, but two of the best selling speakers ever that an awful lot of people have heard for themselves. I'd be more surprised by 20 responses to some high end modern speaker.

 

[tentoze]

I can't believe a discussion comparing 2 rather average speakers can generate 106 posts.

Mike

Well, Mike- this is today. And today, they seem to be either enshrined or graphed to death, or both.

 

[dmusgrave]

Hey guys I'm here to learn, and good on anybody that can afford the best of the best... if I had that kind of cash I'd probably have the best of the best too!

I wish I had some AK'ers nearby so I could have more points of reference regarding audio equipment, but at least AK IS here so I can learn from all the knowledgeable people like Zilch that post here. Hopefully next month I'll get the opportunity to hear some modern, high end equipment... I'm sure New Orleans has at least one high end shop and hopefully more.

Don't worry Zilch, in the end I won't get TOO bummed about any of it, it's all about the music and the music sounds good to my ears on my system right now. Hopefully it will only get better as I acquire more gear that fits my budget, and use the knowledge I gain here in purchasing that gear :thmbsp:

 

[Arkay]

Scrabble word!! Wasn't she the female aviatrix who flew solo across the Atlantic?

She sure couldn't have been a male aviatrix, because then she'd have been an aviator!

Fascinating discussions here. Unfortunately, I don't have the kind of test gear to do any hands-on experimentation with this stuff, and the printed curves have been commented on already as far as I could do, so I'll leave the mental masturbation to you guys and remain just a voyeur on the sidelines!

Just wondering, though: has anyone tried re-building the HPM 100s to be mirror-imaged? Anyone upgraded the HPM-900 cases to remedy their weakness? I've been having too much fun working over my Dahlquists and preparing to work on my TimeFrames (both of which sound better, to my ears) and experimenting with matching drivers to the Sieg Heil, er uh, Great Heil AMTs to bother with the HPM-100s, but I'd be curious to know what mirror-imaging would do to their sound. Maybe if mirror-imaged they'd develop some kind of a real soundstage? Probably my biggest complaint about their sound is their relatively weak soundstage, rather than the mids or highs. I have to admit that they sound EXTREMELY realistic sometimes, though, from around the corner in the next room (more so than in the same room with the speakers!). That may be a fluke of room reflections in my particular space, though(?).

 

[dmusgrave]

Man I wouldn't say my HPM-900's have a weak soundstage. I can close my eyes and point at the performers on a decent recording. It has width, and depth.

Maybe I don't have the ears some folks do, and maybe I just haven't been exposed to better... but I sure like mine.

That said... I was considering having "real" wood cabinets built for my HPM-900's... but I think I'm just going to get a buddy to repair the few small chips in the MDF and put some nice veneer on them, redo the grill cloth, and build some nice matching stands.

 

[dmusgrave]

By the way... can anybody find "charts" for the HPM-900's similar to the ones posted her for the HPM-100's? I'm wondering if the 900 isn't a more accurate speaker? :scratch2:

I gotta quit over analyzing this and just spend quality time enjoying my speakers

I've learned so much from threads like this here, I'm really looking forward to my trip to New Orleans next month and I'm really hoping I can find some high end shops to listen to some really nice modern setups. Is anybody in the New Orleans area that can recommend some places to check out?

 

[dmusgrave]

Looks like the whole "low end" thing shut us HPM folks down :tears:

One day I'll be king, and I'll have speakers worthy of drool :drool: :lmao:

 

[Raphael]

:thmbsp:

Also . . Thanks to Zilch for the easy 'axis' explanation.

 

[Cosmos]

Guys I'm so confused, are the HPM-900's as "inaccurate" as the HPM-100's? Are the speakers I love so dearly not as good as I think they are? I get bummed when I read things like this... but I go listen to my modest little setup and it sounds so good to me.

Frequency Response, while important, is just one aspect of speaker performance. If you get hung up on that aspect alone, you might have an extremely well balanced speaker, in terms of a response curve, that sounds like crap. Audio gear is filled with trade offs. For example. there are many forms of distortion. Frequency Response does not directly encompass many forms of distortion and time delays or phase. It only measures how much acoustic energy is in a given measurement band, not how clean it is or how timely it is initiated. Further, frequency response doesn't consider dynamics. It is, however, one of the easiest quantifiable parameters, which is why so many people get hung up on it as the measurement of "accuracy".

If it was only about frequency response, a 31 band EQ, a parametric EQ and a real time analyzer could make $50 speakers sound like $50K ones.. Unfortunately, it's far more than that.

In the end, in the final and ultimate test, you must trust your ears. I can tell you what I hear and which I like. I can't tell you which you'll prefer as your set of trade-offs are most likely different than my set of trade-offs.. Hell, I can tell you my preferences change. One day I like one speaker the best, the next day I like another better..

Don't get duped by the hype. If you like how it sounds, it's all good. Enjoy and be happy.