• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Mains cables...

cpt_paranoia said:
I think the UK's not doing too badly. In comparison, at least...
Click to expand...
Indeed. Even with our ~50% higher GNP per capita, you guys are doing better than the colonies using that metric.

But then, we have much further to travel having forty times the land mass. The UK would fit into Michigan. :)
 
E-Stat said:
Indeed. Even with our ~50% higher GNP per capita, you guys are doing better than the colonies using that metric.

But then, we have much further to travel having forty times the land mass. The UK would fit into Michigan. :)
Click to expand...

Fuel is cheap in the US. Amazingly cheap compared to the rest of the world. Most 'cars' around me are pickup trucks and large SUVs. This is not true elsewhere.
 
dysmike said:
Fuel is cheap in the US. Amazingly cheap compared to the rest of the world. Most 'cars' around me are pickup trucks and large SUVs. This is not true elsewhere.
Click to expand...
True. The US doesn't levy punitive taxes. That's why we bailed from the Crown in 1776.

Per this view, gas runs about $6.42 per gallon in the UK. It runs $2.46 where I live. :)
 
E-Stat said:
True. The US doesn't levy punitive taxes. That's why we bailed from the Crown in 1776.

Per this view, gas runs about $6.42 per gallon in the UK. It runs $2.46 where I live. :)
Click to expand...
It's also subsidized. Every time they release "strategic reserves" that's effectively what happens.

I was paying over $5/us gal in 1990.
 
4-2-7 said:
However, in this day and age, less and less copper is being used in cords. Most lamp cord at the big box stores is copper coated aluminum. Most power cords don't have any shielding and if they do it's very poor and could be copper coated also. I have run into cases where the power cord created a hum in my power amps, just a cheap black plastic one. I changed it to what looked like a better cheap plastic one and have no hum.

Unless we buy cheap cords and cut them open we don't know what's inside for shielding or the conductor. I have bought McIntosh standard black plastic cords they use on their equipment, they are made in the USA and quality, but they still cost $24 and nothing special about the plug ends. I have bought quality three conductor cable , cheap but descent plugs, heat shrink and texflex to make my own power cords. It's cheaper just to buy a $50-$70 cord and have it shipped to your door and generally made better.
Click to expand...

I have never known a mains cable to be shielded, apart from custom audiophile cables. I accept that some cables may be poorly made so that they don't deliver the power appropriately (eg. not managing the current requirements), and I would accept that an inappropriate product could cause difficulties. A well-made standard power cord should be able to deliver the correct power.

In your case shielding addressed a limitation in your setup that is not found in a typical hifi setup. In this case addressing a problem fixed a deficit, it did not produce an improvement (if I understood your description correctly). I would suspect that a properly-made standard mains cable with shielding would produce the same audio quality as an esoteric mains cable with shielding. But as I said earlier, I'm happy for someone to demonstrate the difference to me.
 
AudioFeline said:
I have never known a mains cable to be shielded, apart from custom audiophile cables. I accept that some cables may be poorly made so that they don't deliver the power appropriately (eg. not managing the current requirements), and I would accept that an inappropriate product could cause difficulties. A well-made standard power cord should be able to deliver the correct power.

In your case shielding addressed a limitation in your setup that is not found in a typical hifi setup. In this case addressing a problem fixed a deficit, it did not produce an improvement (if I understood your description correctly). I would suspect that a properly-made standard mains cable with shielding would produce the same audio quality as an esoteric mains cable with shielding. But as I said earlier, I'm happy for someone to demonstrate the difference to me.
Click to expand...
Actually in a system shielding is important for all your cables, it is in fact how noise can get into the system. I don't expect someone with a receiver, one turntable, and a CDP with a pair of speakers to need anything special. However in my system with separates, many front end components and power amps I can use all the protection I can get with cables crossing each other.

And as I said, I had a problem with some AC power cords when slipping in new to me power amps. They where mono blocks that i ran the power over other cables to test in my system. hummmmmm, swapped the amps leaving the cords, hummmmm stayed on the same side. Started to mess with the speaker cables on that side, that wasn't it. The next morning I stared to unplug stuff to do a better install, thats when I found the power cords where not the same. I replaced it with what looked to be better and no hum. It's no secret to keep power cables away from everything else or even the the preamp, thats why they make multi box preamps. Dirty box clean box, the dirty box has your AC and switches and is the controller for the clean box that has all the preamp in/outputs.
 
4-2-7 said:
Actually in a system shielding is important for all your cables, it is in fact how noise can get into the system. I don't expect someone with a receiver, one turntable, and a CDP with a pair of speakers to need anything special. However in my system with separates, many front end components and power amps I can use all the protection I can get with cables crossing each other.

And as I said, I had a problem with some AC power cords when slipping in new to me power amps. They where mono blocks that i ran the power over other cables to test in my system. hummmmmm, swapped the amps leaving the cords, hummmmm stayed on the same side. Started to mess with the speaker cables on that side, that wasn't it. The next morning I stared to unplug stuff to do a better install, thats when I found the power cords where not the same. I replaced it with what looked to be better and no hum. It's no secret to keep power cables away from everything else or even the the preamp, thats why they make multi box preamps. Dirty box clean box, the dirty box has your AC and switches and is the controller for the clean box that has all the preamp in/outputs.
Click to expand...

I have a reasonable quality system, but have never needed to shield power cords. You have helped me understand that this can be an issue with some systems. And when the delivered power is "dirty", it can be improved by power conditioners so the quality of the power is within the limits of how the amp's can manage it. And I also agree, shielding is essential for the interconnects, and they should be kept away from the power cables.
 
AudioFeline said:
...I can't understand how 1 meter of super cable will make a difference in sound given the kilometers/miles of cable variation behind it...
Click to expand...

E-Stat said:
The "miles and miles" canard misses the point. Similarly, you could ask how an activated water filter could possibly make a difference in a similar scenario. The best explanation I've heard is from former GamuT engineer Ole Lund Christensen: "One day it hit me hard, it does not make sense because I am asking the wrong question..."
....
Click to expand...

I don't think this analogy holds water (if you can forgive the pun).

Your analogy proposes that water arrives at a destination for miles and miles, which could come through good and poor quality pipes, and may have clean and dirty paths. At the end of the day the water is delivered, and is improved for further use by filtration.

In my hifi/power example, the power is delivered from miles and miles of different quality cable, and the resultant power may be in good quality, or it may be "dirty" power with added unwanted signals/interference. When this power is delivered to an amplifier (or other device), the unit's transformer will condition/regulate and possibly filter the power so it is improved for the required use. Exactly like your water analogy.

Some people find that a power conditioning unit is useful when they have power that is so "dirty" it can't be adequately cleaned by the amplifier's transformer electronics. But providing the power cord is properly rated for the use and has no faults (and doesn't require additional screening, as discussed above), I can't see how it could be degrading the quality over 1m given the variation over the miles of cable and many junctions it's passed through.

And again, if someone can demonstrate to me that power cable quality can affect the sound, I'm open to change. (Just like I recall audio cable demonstrations (eg. interconnect and speaker cable) demonstrated that different quality audio carriers do influence the sound.
 
AudioFeline said:
I have a reasonable quality system, but have never needed to shield power cords. You have helped me understand that this can be an issue with some systems. And when the delivered power is "dirty", it can be improved by power conditioners so the quality of the power is within the limits of how the amp's can manage it. And I also agree, shielding is essential for the interconnects, and they should be kept away from the power cables.
Click to expand...
See now that's what I avoid, "Power Conditioners" I have read and helped many who have had nothing but trouble from them. The same goes for cheap power strips, I'd rather use those 30 year old metal ones. They will have pure copper wires and good brass and coper plugs.

I ended up using two of these in my system, that I bought many years ago for the garage.
They have been working good the past 6 years in my system.
Belkin Metal Power Strip Surge Protector
  • 885 Joules
  • Impact Resistant Heavy-Duty Metal Case
  • UL 1449 Rating of 330V
  • 3-Line protection: hot, neutral and ground and a Surge Protected Indicator
  • $25,000 Connected Equipment Warranty. The product is also covered by Belkin Limited lifetime warranty
Overview
Power surges and lightning strikes are not the only things that can damage your home workshop equipment. Simply switching your workshop tools on and off can create electrical imbalances that could cause cumulative, permanent damage to your valuable equipment. The Belkin SurgeMaster® with metal case provides clean, safe power from 10 grounded outlets, for workshop and other electronic devices. The Belkin name assures you of top-quality construction, inside and out. With a rugged metal casing surrounding its advanced elements and superior circuitry, the Belkin SurgeMaster® with metal case offers the most complete protection available from power surges, AC contamination and spikes.

3105a379c5869d9d9f8541cda0594324b85f117b.png
 
I use Belkin power boards as well.
The power has reasonably consistent voltage and seems to be reasonably clean where I am, so I am fortunate in that regard.
I think power conditioners can be good when there is the need, but offer nothing (with the potential to introduce problems) when they are not needed.
 
Bodyblue said:
In short the UK plug is different. The US uses more use specific plugs and designs. The UK is mandated to only have one design. The US lets local agencies choose which plug will be the best for each use.

Now is over engineering a good thing? It can be, and it also can be very expensive. If the US standards were truly that bad, which they are not, there would be nothing left of the US but but millions of charred homes and buildings.
Click to expand...
 
^^^^And there's another one of the many reasons I use metal receptacle boxes when I rewire anything in my house.
 
Bodyblue said:
The main downside is that one has to use the plug the British government say one has to use.......with zero thought to differing situations. I think local businesses and local towns are smart enough to figure out on their one what would be the best to use.

Very few times in the history of engineering has one solution been the best avail for many differing jobs.
Click to expand...
Standard time was a good idea. Just ask an engineer. Like the one driving the train. ;)
 
AudioFeline said:
I don't think this analogy holds water (if you can forgive the pun).
Click to expand...
It does for audiophiles, reviewers and manufacturers who have been enjoying the benefits of using aftermarket cords for fifteen years or more. That one meter can most certainly make a difference.

AudioFeline said:
And again, if someone can demonstrate to me that power cable quality can affect the sound, I'm open to change.
Click to expand...
Audition them in your own environment! Cocktail napkin speculation takes you only so far. You're welcome to believe whatever you wish as it has no effect on me.

You can only lead a horse to water...
 
Last edited:
Why does my water boil faster when I am working in Scotland than it does at home in North Carolina :dunno:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom