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MC275 - Fake?

I'm with Dave on sticking with the original. I've read a bit of McIntosh history along with Dave O'Brien's clinic book and have a affinity for the real thing. Here's a picture of my 275. It's not museum quality but is in pretty decent shape and sounds heavenly to me. It even has a DOB clinic sticker on it. :)

P.S. Lets avoid further China bashing so the thread stays open. Thanks.

MC 275.JPG
 
So, where do we draw the line? Let's say it was an exact copy and indistinguishable in sound from the genuine item. Purchase it and you've endorsed theft.

If enough folks did that, McIntosh would be unable to continue. If that's not a concern, then you should ask yourself why it isn't.
 
I think there is no China bashing here so far, but rather, counterfeit bashing. Even Jay's youtube clip given above is trying to give Chifi products some defends. In fact lately Jay and quite a number of hifi youtubers have been praising some very well made but budget friendly Chinese tube amplifiers like the Willsenton's. Chinese can make great amps, and they do deserve praises when they put in their real efforts in them. However, faking products made by other manufacturers is not tolerable and is harmful to the ecosystem.
 
Like anything else in this world, you get what you pay for.

I bought a bunch of $10 "Rolox" self winding watches for gag gifts when I was in the PRC about 20 years ago. They all worked fine until they didn't which seemed to be at most a year.

If you're a poser, great. Buy a 10 year supply for $150 and you're GTG.

You want a quality (and prohibitively expensive) time piece that you can hand down to your grandchildren, get a real Rolex and suck up the cost.
 
Does McIntosh offer replacement transformers to DIYers who want to repair or experiment with their patented (in the usa) unity coupled circuit? I've never asked but I've read that they no longer service any of their classic vacuum tube gear.
If that's the case, and it's based on some hearsay from a source I cant remember, why is the production of knockoffs a threat.
If in fact McIntosh discontinued their tube amps, then people will get what they need elsewhere.
(They do still sell a 275 on their website. I checked)
For example. I built out a pair of -30s which were too rusted to bother to save. I bought chassis from a 3rd party which are exact replicas and which look perfect. Original transformers were used, but literally everything else is brand new or nos.
Am I stealing?
How do you figure?
Is the guy who makes replacement transformers stealing?
They made about 14,000 MC30s
Thas 7000 stereo pairs.
Eventually, demand is going to drive someone to made knockoffs.
McIntosh could obviously prevent this, by simply giving people what they want...
The best tube amplifiers at a price which reflects the fact that the R&D guys are all dead, and the R&D was paid for, long before I was born. They complain but their case doesn't hold water.
Certainly doesn't hold water outside the United states.
Obviously I'd rather have a pristine original with no Chrome missing and every component untouched by time.
That's not possible, so the market does its thing...

I think the Asian Audiophile market would go bonkers for a new "official licensed product" built in Asia. Give the people what they want... The original Mc30 wasn't entirely made in USA. Astute observers will note that V1, a Telefunken 12ax7 is made in Germany.
 
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I think there is no China bashing here so far, but rather, counterfeit bashing. Even Jay's youtube clip given above is trying to give Chifi products some defends. In fact lately Jay and quite a number of hifi youtubers have been praising some very well made but budget friendly Chinese tube amplifiers like the Willsenton's. Chinese can make great amps, and they do deserve praises when they put in their real efforts in them. However, faking products made by other manufacturers is not tolerable and is harmful to the ecosystem.

Since you mentioned Willsenton:
 
Does McIntosh offer replacement transformers to DIYers who want to repair or experiment with their patented (in the usa) unity coupled circuit? I've never asked but I've read that they no longer service any of their classic vacuum tube gear.
If that's the case, and it's based on some hearsay from a source I cant remember, why is the production of knockoffs a threat.
If in fact McIntosh discontinued their tube amps, then people will get what they need elsewhere.
(They do still sell a 275 on their website. I checked)
For example. I built out a pair of -30s which were too rusted to bother to save. I bought chassis from a 3rd party which are exact replicas and which look perfect. Original transformers were used, but literally everything else is brand new or nos.
Am I stealing?
How do you figure?
Is the guy who makes replacement transformers stealing?
They made about 14,000 MC30s
Thas 7000 stereo pairs.
Eventually, demand is going to drive someone to made knockoffs.
McIntosh could obviously prevent this, by simply giving people what they want...
The best tube amplifiers at a price which reflects the fact that the R&D guys are all dead, and the R&D was paid for, long before I was born. They complain but their case doesn't hold water.
Certainly doesn't hold water outside the United states.
Obviously I'd rather have a pristine original with no Chrome missing and every component untouched by time.
That's not possible, so the market does its thing...

I think the Asian Audiophile market would go bonkers for a new "official licensed product" built in Asia. Give the people what they want... The original Mc30 wasn't entirely made in USA. Astute observers will note that V1, a Telefunken 12ax7 is made in Germany.

Okay, a lot to reply to.

I doubt that McIntosh is too worried about the aftermarket chassis for your MC30s, I bought a pair for my MC75s also, and they’re better made than the originals. Completely legal until they put McIntosh on them, as that is a registered trademark. Likely nobody will do anything about the bare chassis and restoring this old iron just helps the McIntosh brand image.

Transformers? I’m pretty sure that all patents involved in the MC30s have long ago expired, utility patents only last so long, and renewing ad-naseum isn’t possible. Provided there is no valid patent on the circuit and transformer you should be able to reproduce those also, provided you don’t stamp McIntosh on them or represent them as McIntosh original, OE, OEM, etc. You can probably re-create the entire MC30 (or the MC275) amplifier’s circuit and sell them (again provided there are no remaining patents). However, making it look exactly like the MC275 so that it can be mistaken for the real-deal, might land you in court.

The McIntosh badging however, is the big one. It identifies this as a real McIntosh, at least to most people who would see it. This is a trademark, and ownership of a trademark can last indefinitely. Unless McIntosh sells or licenses the trademark nobody else can use that badge, the name, etc. depending on what McIntosh has registered.

How does the use of this badge or even the lookalike amplifier harm McIntosh? Mainly their image can be tarnished. If I were interested in buying a McIntosh, were at a friend/neighbor’s home and he had a nice MC275 playing music, and it sounded as bad as my Yaqin, I’d not have any interest in owning a McIntosh any more. I’d probably also tell others how bad it sounds and influence others against buying McIntosh. If that amp burns down the owner’s house, blows his speakers, electrocutes his cat, most people will read the first headline that it was a McIntosh that did this.

There are many reasons that intellectual property is one of the most valuable assets in companies, be it patents or trademarks. Designs take a lot of money to perfect and properly produce, and reputations take a long time to create and build. Simply taking a name, likeness, or design and selling your own under these names undermines all of that hard work, allows someone with no investment in that reputation and design to profit from it.

I spent years of my career engineering and inventing new products, also years of my career researching and writing utility patents, so that we could benefit from our hard work not some hack. I respect the work that McIntosh Engineers did decades ago to build that company’s products and reputation and am a strong proponent of shutting down counterfeits.

I wrestled a bit with buying aftermarket chassis for my MC75s, but as you found there are no other options. The new chassis will make my MC75s look like new, and they will sound like new (if I EVER get the project underway) and I see no way that it can harm McIntosh’s brand value nor will it take a penny of their revenue. However, there is the matter of the name McIntosh on the silk-screen lettering on the back, so technically it should be licensed (which I wish they would do).

I guess I’m the “pot calling the kettle black” in a way.
 
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There are many reasons that intellectual property is one of the most valuable assets in companies, be it patents or trademarks. Designs take a lot of money to perfect and properly produce, and reputations take a long time to create and build. Simply taking a name, likeness, or design and selling your own under these names undermines all of that hard work, allows someone with no investment in that reputation and design to profit from it.


++++++1
 
It's probably not economically practical to tool up for a short run of unity coupled obsolescent opts in Binghamton.
Let's say someone else somewhere else determined otherwise, and cloned them exactly with the best current materials. Let's say the offer them as exact replacements with a warranty. Let's say they also offer an amp, assembled to the highest standards with quality parts, trademarked as something other than McIntosh. Maybe McClone 75, 275, 240, 225, whatever.
Would that be objectionable?
 
If the patent has expired people can do whatever they want right ?

I wonder why we pay people to inspect shipments coming in for counterfeit goods, it's different when consumers are buying supposedly protected products.
 
If the patent has expired people can do whatever they want right ?

I wonder why we pay people to inspect shipments coming in for counterfeit goods, it's different when consumers are buying supposedly protected products.
Trademarks are generally protected but can be sold or transferred. Designs are patented for specified terms.
 
A fake Rolex can never match the weight of the original and this is often used to tell a fake from a real one. Similarly, it should be fairly easy to detect a fake MC275 just from lifting it, or perhaps those buying a fake know its a fake. A neighbor owns a replica 911 that I can spot it a block away as a fake and have wondered who he is trying to impress.

Schenzen, aka fake watch city is the center of the industry. The "homages" are so good that it takes a jeweler with a loupe to spot the difference. In fact, the Chinese have copied ETA movements which are in a lot of Swiss watches. The copies are so good that it would be near impossible for a non-watch professional to spot the difference. I personally would never trust a pawn shop or CL seller considering that a top notch homage costs about 1/20 what a real one costs.
 
Was there even such a thing as a 40th Anniversary MC275? I've seen 50th Anniversary but not 40th.

Do you know the history of the Gold versions? Pretty sure the first was the MC275G which was limited to either 70 or 71 examples. This model proved to be so popular that the 50th in gold came out immediately after G production ended. Not sure what happened with the gold models, I read somewhere that this option was added to the line for the Asian market.
 
Schenzen, aka fake watch city is the center of the industry. The "homages" are so good that it takes a jeweler with a loupe to spot the difference. In fact, the Chinese have copied ETA movements which are in a lot of Swiss watches. The copies are so good that it would be near impossible for a non-watch professional to spot the difference. I personally would never trust a pawn shop or CL seller considering that a top notch homage costs about 1/20 what a real one costs.
Used to be easy to spot a fake Rolex, crude repro of the Oyster case profile as seen across a room, poor dial detailing, lack of solid heft.
They got better, much better. I haven't inspected the latest dials under a loupe and don't know if they can pass.
 
Used to be easy to spot a fake Rolex, crude repro of the Oyster case profile as seen across a room, poor dial detailing, lack of solid heft.
They got better, much better. I haven't inspected the latest dials under a loupe and don't know if they can pass.

I found a luxury watch in a thrift store golf set. It was inside one of the pockets. I spent a month trying to authenticate it and learned more about homages than I care to admit. I looked at countless photos and watched countless comparo vids. I even looked at the "manufacturer's" site and was actually saddened to see so many brands and models. In the end, I concluded my example was authentic. Mine had a coated sapphire lens which had a blue reflection in sunlight.
 
It's probably not economically practical to tool up for a short run of unity coupled obsolescent opts in Binghamton.
Let's say someone else somewhere else determined otherwise, and cloned them exactly with the best current materials. Let's say the offer them as exact replacements with a warranty. Let's say they also offer an amp, assembled to the highest standards with quality parts, trademarked as something other than McIntosh. Maybe McClone 75, 275, 240, 225, whatever.
Would that be objectionable?

Yes and no for me. I would not buy the clone as a matter of principle, pride of ownership would tip the scale for me. Lexus LS430 was an unabashed copy of Mercedes S430. A close friend bought the Mercedes the S430 and another bought the LS430 and they are both still good friends. :)
 
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